iginla
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Post by iginla on Dec 17, 2018 13:42:05 GMT
But how do you know how much money we get? As someone has pointed out several times this very week that freebie tickets are being dished out regularly and that the Steelers have a higher attendance etc. Etc. In fact didn't you yourself say that you attended on a freebie? Oh come on. Dundee get 1000 fans in if they’re lucky, Panthers get nearly six times that. Sponsorship and merchandise....don’t even go there. If we were having this argument because of one bad year then its perhaps not valid but we’re not,because it happens every single year. Do you really think that Panthers do EVERYTHING they possibly can to win including spending all they can afford on player wages ?
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BigLad
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Post by BigLad on Dec 17, 2018 14:01:41 GMT
Take out the £5 Steelers games and then compare the attendances. We're still ahead.
Less than 1,500 left for Saturday v MK. It seems the club can do what it likes, people will still buy tickets.
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iginla
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Post by iginla on Dec 17, 2018 14:13:29 GMT
Take out the £5 Steelers games and then compare the attendances. We're still ahead. Less than 1,500 left for Saturday v MK. It seems the club can do what it likes, people will still buy tickets. Financially still miles ahead of Steelers yes. So why is our roster not miles better than theirs in quality ? I’ve said before,when i questioned Neil Black at the Q+A about Panthers being at the bottom of the league of % player spend v income he didn’t even seek to deny or defend it. By that response one assumes that i was correct.
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Mark
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Post by Mark on Dec 17, 2018 14:26:38 GMT
32 points from 60 for a team everyone considers one of the big four. Embarrassing.
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iginla
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Post by iginla on Dec 17, 2018 14:42:18 GMT
32 points from 60 for a team everyone considers one of the big four. Embarrassing. Embarrassing indeed. 16 wins and 14 defeats that’s what we’ve done so far this season. League winning form.....not even close ! 🤣
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Fez
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Post by Fez on Dec 17, 2018 15:16:23 GMT
But how do you know how much money we get? As someone has pointed out several times this very week that freebie tickets are being dished out regularly and that the Steelers have a higher attendance etc. Etc. In fact didn't you yourself say that you attended on a freebie? Oh come on. Dundee get 1000 fans in if they’re lucky, Panthers get nearly six times that. Sponsorship and merchandise....don’t even go there. If we were having this argument because of one bad year then its perhaps not valid but we’re not,because it happens every single year. Do you really think that Panthers do EVERYTHING they possibly can to win including spending all they can afford on player wages ? I think you're looking at the problem rather than the solution. How many imports have we got on the payroll? How many of them could be described as budget/up-and-coming? 2 Import NMs 3 Coaches Hurtubise, Pither, Lepine, Olsen + all the ones they've added since the season started. All (for this league) pedigree players Yet they don't perform. I grant you that of course they could spend more. Two points: 1. It is run as business, not for love/by a fan. Let's be realistic about that. 2. Is personnel budget the real problem here? Let's look at the allocation of resources rather than budget. In the last 10 years, which import players have exceeded expectations playing for Panthers? In other words from whom has the organisation gained value for money? Who have gone on from Panthers to subsequently further their careers elsewhere? Lepine. Mosey. Any others? What does this tell us? Now let's look at a list of players who have failed to meet expectations while at the club. Whose big resume/reputation has been fulfilled? Who has been a flop? Bet nobody needs help coming up with names. The culture is wrong.
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Post by wasteoftime on Dec 17, 2018 15:25:16 GMT
No more moaning. Most of us on here know what happens, it happens almost every year a good start then the players get to know that if they give just enough they have a life of Riley. It don't matter who the coach is. It don't matter who the players are. It is'nt an ice hockey club in the true definition, it is a money making business.Nothing is ever going to change while this owner and manager are here. Even the one eyed fans must now know this is more than just a coincidence. good luck.
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Post by ashfieldpanther on Dec 17, 2018 16:24:00 GMT
The EIHL isn't the league for players to make a reputation. At best, a good season in the UK can earn the player a better contract in a European league of comparable standard, but offering better wages. As Panthers results in Continental/CHL matches bear out, the Danish, EBEL, French leagues aren't higher standard. There are very few players league wide who go on to better things, and even less go on to earn good contracts back home. Even from those who left our GS team only Lepine went on to better things. The rest who carried on playing shuffled sideways. I think the management do all they can to get best value for money from players, my criticism lies with whoever is picking the players, whether they still have good enough contacts. The 'lesser' clubs seem to find a few diamonds in the rough, look at Guildford last night as a good example. Dunbar, Watters, Reddick, Ackered, not an AHL appearance among them. But if Panthers signed those types of players they'd be accused of penny pinching.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 17, 2018 16:40:31 GMT
No more moaning. Most of us on here know what happens, it happens almost every year a good start then the players get to know that if they give just enough they have a life of Riley. It don't matter who the coach is. It don't matter who the players are. It is'nt an ice hockey club in the true definition, it is a money making business.Nothing is ever going to change while this owner and manager are here. Even the one eyed fans must now know this is more than just a coincidence. good luck. Exactly why I stopped moaning about performances ages ago. It isn't because we have a crap set of players. Only the unneducated would think that.
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bobness
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Post by bobness on Dec 17, 2018 17:41:17 GMT
But how do you know how much money we get? As someone has pointed out several times this very week that freebie tickets are being dished out regularly and that the Steelers have a higher attendance etc. Etc. In fact didn't you yourself say that you attended on a freebie? Yeah I did, Just have a look at the accounts and do some very basic sums. It's all there for people to see but people don't want to know / admit it. Talk us through it then. It’s all complete speculation though. There almost nothing you can tell about Panthers’ finances from Aladdin’s accounts, so it’s basically all supposition. Unless you have some facts?
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bobness
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Post by bobness on Dec 17, 2018 17:46:27 GMT
32 points from 60 for a team everyone considers one of the big four. Embarrassing. You mean 38, yes?
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Post by fluffypanther on Dec 17, 2018 17:53:44 GMT
I don't know how much Money is spent I just know that it isn't fun to go anymore. We loved going in the time Cam Janssen was here , but its no fun now. We have season tickets , we go every week with hope in our hearts. But it just isn't fun anymore, is there hope that things will change
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Mark
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Post by Mark on Dec 17, 2018 17:59:38 GMT
32 points from 60 for a team everyone considers one of the big four. Embarrassing. You mean 38, yes? Probably, I didn’t count overtime losses. Still makes grim reading.
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iginla
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Post by iginla on Dec 17, 2018 18:05:10 GMT
Yeah I did, Just have a look at the accounts and do some very basic sums. It's all there for people to see but people don't want to know / admit it. Talk us through it then. It’s all complete speculation though. There almost nothing you can tell about Panthers’ finances from Aladdin’s accounts, so it’s basically all supposition. Unless you have some facts? You can bet there won’t be anything you could extract exactly in Aladdin’s accounts,that’s probably precisely why it’s in Aladdin’s accounts. But what we do know is that every team has to fly imports in,house them,provide equipment and has similar travel,therefore those costs are going to be very similar at each club. The only major variables ought to be arena costs and player/staff wages. However look at pure ticket revenue for say Panthers and Dundee based on an average of say £13 a ticket over 30 home games with Dundee getting 1000 fans and Panthers 5800 fans. Dundee £390,000 Panthers £2,262,000 So on ticket sales alone Panthers are almost £2 million better off than Dundee,that is a massive massive difference. And that’s before you even start with other extra friendly/cup/play off games,sponsorship and other revenue streams. How on earth are Dundee even in the same ballpark never mind beating Panthers.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 17, 2018 18:34:24 GMT
Talk us through it then. It’s all complete speculation though. There almost nothing you can tell about Panthers’ finances from Aladdin’s accounts, so it’s basically all supposition. Unless you have some facts? You can bet there won’t be anything you could extract exactly in Aladdin’s accounts,that’s probably precisely why it’s in Aladdin’s accounts. But what we do know is that every team has to fly imports in,house them,provide equipment and has similar travel,therefore those costs are going to be very similar at each club. The only major variables ought to be arena costs and player/staff wages. However look at pure ticket revenue for say Panthers and Dundee based on an average of say £13 a ticket over 30 home games with Dundee getting 1000 fans and Panthers 5800 fans. Dundee £390,000 Panthers £2,262,000 So on ticket sales alone Panthers are almost £2 million better off than Dundee,that is a massive massive difference. And that’s before you even start with other extra friendly/cup/play off games,sponsorship and other revenue streams. How on earth are Dundee even in the same ballpark never mind beating Panthers. Games ain't won on a spreadsheet Iginla how many more times !! You have to battle hard every night and that's something the Panthers players ain't currently doing. Perhaps if Black implemented a win bonus in league games this may change as you of all people should know hockey players are money orientated!
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Post by wgray on Dec 17, 2018 18:35:57 GMT
I don't know how much Money is spent I just know that it isn't fun to go anymore. We loved going in the time Cam Janssen was here , but its no fun now. We have season tickets , we go every week with hope in our hearts. But it just isn't fun anymore, is there hope that things will change I agree completely. This season from memory, the only home games where I’ve come away feeling entertained and pleased were the two games against Cardiff, the game against Coventry, the recent Glasgow game and the two Sheffield games. So that’s 6 games in total out of 16 where I’ve left feeling like I’ve enjoyed watching that home game. I know the game is changing (for the worse in my opinion) but this league still needs players who are going to be aggressive, intimidating and passionate, who will drop the gloves. I loved Lepine when he was with us before but I feel he’s come away from playing the way he used to. Janssen was the pinnacle of what you want in an enforcer, I’d love it if he was still with us! The way I’m feeling now I’d even be happy if with had Gagz with us instead of Lepine, at least we’d have some entertainment and teams like Manchester would get put in there place if they tried something. (Springer I’m taking about you!) I’m not saying I’d rather see brawls on the ice than us winning games but if we aren’t winning, we’re not playing exciting hockey and most of the players aren’t giving their all, then I expect a scrap, a big hit or some emotion from someone to try and spark something. At 6-2 down yesterday we were just letting Guildford play the puck around us for the last few minutes, I didn’t get the impression that the majority of the players cared. I don’t want to live in the passed but Janssen would have been out there running round like a madman hitting everything he could to show that he cared, to restore some pride, we don’t get that from this team.
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Post by spik on Dec 17, 2018 18:47:16 GMT
When everyone on here decides to not go anymore.There will be only a small dent in as regards the empty seats. The walk ups wanting to be entertained after a few beers and before a club and the family outing crew will still be there a plenty.
I guess the hockey fans who have supported and obviously marketed the product for years will be the only loss for the 'hockey' club.No one just wanting to be entertained will be selling the sport. People going the extra mile will be the only loss.
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bobness
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Post by bobness on Dec 17, 2018 19:52:48 GMT
Talk us through it then. It’s all complete speculation though. There almost nothing you can tell about Panthers’ finances from Aladdin’s accounts, so it’s basically all supposition. Unless you have some facts? You can bet there won’t be anything you could extract exactly in Aladdin’s accounts,that’s probably precisely why it’s in Aladdin’s accounts. But what we do know is that every team has to fly imports in,house them,provide equipment and has similar travel,therefore those costs are going to be very similar at each club. The only major variables ought to be arena costs and player/staff wages. However look at pure ticket revenue for say Panthers and Dundee based on an average of say £13 a ticket over 30 home games with Dundee getting 1000 fans and Panthers 5800 fans. Dundee £390,000 Panthers £2,262,000 So on ticket sales alone Panthers are almost £2 million better off than Dundee,that is a massive massive difference. And that’s before you even start with other extra friendly/cup/play off games,sponsorship and other revenue streams. How on earth are Dundee even in the same ballpark never mind beating Panthers. And what are these rink/arena rental charges per game for each team? And said player budgets? Have you any idea at all? You raise the issue and then go on about turnover...
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iginla
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Post by iginla on Dec 17, 2018 19:59:44 GMT
You can bet there won’t be anything you could extract exactly in Aladdin’s accounts,that’s probably precisely why it’s in Aladdin’s accounts. But what we do know is that every team has to fly imports in,house them,provide equipment and has similar travel,therefore those costs are going to be very similar at each club. The only major variables ought to be arena costs and player/staff wages. However look at pure ticket revenue for say Panthers and Dundee based on an average of say £13 a ticket over 30 home games with Dundee getting 1000 fans and Panthers 5800 fans. Dundee £390,000 Panthers £2,262,000 So on ticket sales alone Panthers are almost £2 million better off than Dundee,that is a massive massive difference. And that’s before you even start with other extra friendly/cup/play off games,sponsorship and other revenue streams. How on earth are Dundee even in the same ballpark never mind beating Panthers. Games ain't won on a spreadsheet Iginla how many more times !! You have to battle hard every night and that's something the Panthers players ain't currently doing. Perhaps if Black implemented a win bonus in league games this may change as you of all people should know hockey players are money orientated! I know they have to battle hard Pidge,of course they do. But a quality team battling hard will most probably beat an average team battling just as hard more often than not. People keep saying this Panthers team is a quality side,but is it. Looks ok ish on paper,but I’d take Cardiff’s or Belfast’s roster over ours any day of the week. Belfast are even doing what they’re doing basically playing mostly on the road so far and been without arguably their best import (Dwyer) and best Brit (Shields). As for win bonuses,whether Panthers players get them now i don’t know,they used to but it was a pittance about £30 i think it was.
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iginla
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Post by iginla on Dec 17, 2018 20:12:08 GMT
You can bet there won’t be anything you could extract exactly in Aladdin’s accounts,that’s probably precisely why it’s in Aladdin’s accounts. But what we do know is that every team has to fly imports in,house them,provide equipment and has similar travel,therefore those costs are going to be very similar at each club. The only major variables ought to be arena costs and player/staff wages. However look at pure ticket revenue for say Panthers and Dundee based on an average of say £13 a ticket over 30 home games with Dundee getting 1000 fans and Panthers 5800 fans. Dundee £390,000 Panthers £2,262,000 So on ticket sales alone Panthers are almost £2 million better off than Dundee,that is a massive massive difference. And that’s before you even start with other extra friendly/cup/play off games,sponsorship and other revenue streams. How on earth are Dundee even in the same ballpark never mind beating Panthers. And what are these rink/arena rental charges per game for each team? And said player budgets? Have you any idea at all? You raise the issue and then go on about turnover... Panthers arena costs them £14k a week no idea what Dundee’s costs. Panthers player budget no more than £500k I’d guess (even if they paid every player £1000 a week it would only come to £600k and they don’t pay that). Even if Dundee didn’t pay anything for their arena or pay their players anything,that would still leave Panthers £1 million to the good on ticket sales alone plus sponsorship and merchandise etc. Have you any idea what it costs to sponsor a game or an awards night etc.....i do I’ve been there and paid it and it’s a lot of money for nothing !
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bobness
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Post by bobness on Dec 18, 2018 7:44:29 GMT
...... I’ve said before,when i questioned Neil Black at the Q+A about Panthers being at the bottom of the league of % player spend v income he didn’t even seek to deny or defend it. By that response one assumes that i was correct. I've said before, that's one heck of an assumption...
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bobness
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Post by bobness on Dec 18, 2018 7:58:38 GMT
And what are these rink/arena rental charges per game for each team? And said player budgets? Have you any idea at all? You raise the issue and then go on about turnover... Panthers arena costs them £14k a week no idea what Dundee’s costs. Panthers player budget no more than £500k I’d guess (even if they paid every player £1000 a week it would only come to £600k and they don’t pay that). Even if Dundee didn’t pay anything for their arena or pay their players anything,that would still leave Panthers £1 million to the good on ticket sales alone plus sponsorship and merchandise etc. Have you any idea what it costs to sponsor a game or an awards night etc.....i do I’ve been there and paid it and it’s a lot of money for nothing ! So you've no idea about the detailed finances of the Stars, other than guessing ticket income and player employment costs, and how it all fits together with Dundee Arena, then? I have indeed sponsored games, even presented MoM a couple of times, but what I do know is that a lot of the advertising that looks like sponsorship doesn't involve much money changing hands, just contra deals. One assumes Panthers now train at Roko because they gave them the best freeby deal, Virgin presumably wanting a bit more bang for their buck. Having the most income doesn't mean having the most money. You should've put your money where your mouth was when the Panthers went up for sale, and had no buyers, the team would surely be swimming in championships by now.
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bobness
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Post by bobness on Dec 18, 2018 9:46:19 GMT
Meanwhile, back at the plot, the 9/67/74 line was a combined -16 over the weekend, it looks like. Ouch.
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Yotes
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Post by Yotes on Dec 18, 2018 10:07:27 GMT
Is 67 Richard?
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The Flying Shirt
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Post by The Flying Shirt on Dec 18, 2018 10:25:20 GMT
Meanwhile, back at the plot, the 9/67/74 line was a combined -16 over the weekend, it looks like. Ouch. Ouch...
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