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Post by kievthegreat on Jan 21, 2018 14:13:58 GMT
Would you rather be a Panthers fan or a Giants fan? Genuine question. I'd take their players and coach, but teal is an absolutely hideous colour (better than orange obviously).  Also being a fan isn't that much of a choice at this stage. It's an emotional decision made years ago that you can't just flick like a switch so I've pinned my colours to this mast and I'll go down with this ship. |
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Post by texpef on Jan 21, 2018 15:39:09 GMT
And there is the kicker Kiev, it isnt like i can now just go support sheffield (need a lie down now after washing my mouth with soap), the choice seems to be panthers or nothing and the way things are at the mo my choice is nothing. Now i can accept that isnt everyones but for me for now thats what it comes down to. The problem occurs if this attitude of not supporting the club happens to enough people then it may have unexpected repercussions but for now for me my staying away is the only way i am not peed off for the whole weekend... and of course it saves me money whilst at the same has the added bonus of not putting more money in the owners pocket.
If he isnt prepared to support the team im not prepared to support him...
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simonm
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Post by simonm on Jan 21, 2018 16:04:40 GMT
Let's see if I can answer those questions asked of me or correct some misconceptions of what I've written...
Yes I think Panthers wage bill is comparable to other teams possibly even the highest (prepared to accept this)... Of percentage generated revenue i think it's not the highest, nowhere near, which I think we all agree on.
Of course a wage capped sport can be competitive, but we don't have a wage capped sport so it doesn't apply to our league or the decisions being made by Blacks management team.
What I would like you to consider however is just how you personally would be treated if you didn't deliver what your customer\boss required of you. How many years do you think you'd be asked to come back on Monday ? ..... Not many I'd hazard, your boss would soon get disillusioned and sack your sorry arse.
But we don't have a disillusioned owner,so the ONLY conclusion is that his management are delivering what he wants, Moran and Nielson are doing a good job for the person who pays them.. Because I don't believe for one second that Black suffers fool's lightly, do you ?
So what we know is that Panthers don't spend to win the league, and we agree they could spend more without it creating any financial instability in the club.. So as much as the games are close (maybe) or designed to be an exciting entertaining watch of an evening they are NOT a result of the Panthers organisation being as competitive as they could be.
And that like it or not, agree with it or not in my mind makes it entertainment rather than a truely competitive sport.
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Post by The Flying Shirt on Jan 21, 2018 16:18:35 GMT
Let's see if I can answer those questions asked of me or correct some misconceptions of what I've written... Yes I think Panthers wage bill is comparable to other teams possibly even the highest (prepared to accept this)... Of percentage generated revenue i think it's not the highest, nowhere near, which I think we all agree on. Of course a wage capped sport can be competitive, but we don't have a wage capped sport so it doesn't apply to our league or the decisions being made by Blacks management team. What I would like you to consider however is just how you personally would be treated if you didn't deliver what your customer\boss required of you. How many years do you think you'd be asked to come back on Monday ? ..... Not many I'd hazard, your boss would soon get disillusioned and sack your sorry hairy bum. But we don't have a disillusioned owner,so the ONLY conclusion is that his management are delivering what he wants, Moran and Nielson are doing a good job for the person who pays them.. Because I don't believe for one second that Black suffers fool's lightly, do you ? So what we know is that Panthers don't spend to win the league, and we agree they could spend more without it creating any financial instability in the club.. So as much as the games are close (maybe) or designed to be an exciting entertaining watch of an evening they are NOT a result of the Panthers organisation being as competitive as they could be. And that like it or not, agree with it or not in my mind makes it entertainment rather than a truely competitive sport. Pretty sure that if we were top of the league on wages or even close behind then NB is an astute enough businessman to know in a heartbeat that he isn’t getting value and if it mattered then questions would have been asked years ago. If it doesn’t matter then why would he want the Panthers to be top budget? Even to the most head in the sand supporter can work that out. NB certainly isn’t going to give money away for nothing and as a businessman he isn’t going to see it wasted either. The chairmen and owners all know what the other is spending as all players know each other and come from the same pool. |
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iginla
Chick Zamick
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Post by iginla on Jan 21, 2018 16:30:20 GMT
Let's see if I can answer those questions asked of me or correct some misconceptions of what I've written... Yes I think Panthers wage bill is comparable to other teams possibly even the highest (prepared to accept this)... Of percentage generated revenue i think it's not the highest, nowhere near, which I think we all agree on. Of course a wage capped sport can be competitive, but we don't have a wage capped sport so it doesn't apply to our league or the decisions being made by Blacks management team. What I would like you to consider however is just how you personally would be treated if you didn't deliver what your customer\boss required of you. How many years do you think you'd be asked to come back on Monday ? ..... Not many I'd hazard, your boss would soon get disillusioned and sack your sorry hairy bum. But we don't have a disillusioned owner,so the ONLY conclusion is that his management are delivering what he wants, Moran and Nielson are doing a good job for the person who pays them.. Because I don't believe for one second that Black suffers fool's lightly, do you ? So what we know is that Panthers don't spend to win the league, and we agree they could spend more without it creating any financial instability in the club.. So as much as the games are close (maybe) or designed to be an exciting entertaining watch of an evening they are NOT a result of the Panthers organisation being as competitive as they could be. And that like it or not, agree with it or not in my mind makes it entertainment rather than a truely competitive sport. And that is absolutely 100% spot on mate. Totally and undoubtedly true in every sense. I can take losing,I could take being competitive if that's all we could afford to be,like a Fife or a Coventry team. But Panthers are not Fife or Coventry,so why should we only be comptitive to their sort of level when we could easily afford so so much better without breaking any bank,risking going bust or anywhere even close. That is the thing which naffs me off totally. Panthers fans turn up in their droves every game,have done for many many years,they're the best,the most loyal fans you could ever wish for as a team owner,they do their bit and dig deep in their pockets year upon year. Meanwhile,the club tries to make out they do everything possible in their power to be successful and win.....when they clearly DON'T in more ways than one ! If you were a millionaire. Would you live in a three bed semi ? Would you drive a second hand car ? Would you go to Skeggy on holiday ? No you wouldn't,or I very much doubt it. It might be a strange set of analogies,but that's basically what millionaire Panthers are offering their fans......about 4th best usually ! |
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iginla
Chick Zamick
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Post by iginla on Jan 21, 2018 16:37:40 GMT
Let's see if I can answer those questions asked of me or correct some misconceptions of what I've written... Yes I think Panthers wage bill is comparable to other teams possibly even the highest (prepared to accept this)... Of percentage generated revenue i think it's not the highest, nowhere near, which I think we all agree on. Of course a wage capped sport can be competitive, but we don't have a wage capped sport so it doesn't apply to our league or the decisions being made by Blacks management team. What I would like you to consider however is just how you personally would be treated if you didn't deliver what your customer\boss required of you. How many years do you think you'd be asked to come back on Monday ? ..... Not many I'd hazard, your boss would soon get disillusioned and sack your sorry hairy bum. But we don't have a disillusioned owner,so the ONLY conclusion is that his management are delivering what he wants, Moran and Nielson are doing a good job for the person who pays them.. Because I don't believe for one second that Black suffers fool's lightly, do you ? So what we know is that Panthers don't spend to win the league, and we agree they could spend more without it creating any financial instability in the club.. So as much as the games are close (maybe) or designed to be an exciting entertaining watch of an evening they are NOT a result of the Panthers organisation being as competitive as they could be. And that like it or not, agree with it or not in my mind makes it entertainment rather than a truely competitive sport. Pretty sure that if we were top of the league on wages or even close behind then NB is an astute enough businessman to know in a heartbeat that he isn’t getting value and if it mattered then questions would have been asked years ago. If it doesn’t matter then why would he want the Panthers to be top budget? Even to the most head in the sand supporter can work that out. NB certainly isn’t going to give money away for nothing and as a businessman he isn’t going to see it wasted either. The chairmen and owners all know what the other is spending as all players know each other and come from the same pool. Black certainly questioned the head coaching position a couple of years ago,before giving Neilson another two years. They put the feelers out and nobody wanted the job,so we ended up stuck with Neilson again. |
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simonm
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Post by simonm on Jan 21, 2018 16:50:15 GMT
And here's something to consider for those that have an emotional investment in their 'sporting club'.... If you truly accept the entertainment argument then you'll find yourself off loading all the angst that comes with following a sporting club and accept the entertainment that's offered to you on a Saturday night, or not.
Trust me, I'm living proof.
One day my club will compete to its full potential and I'll regain my respect for the organisation but until then I'll keep my blood pressure low by not giving a toss.
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simonm
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Post by simonm on Jan 21, 2018 16:53:34 GMT
How hard do you think it must be to find a person that would accept the terms of coaching the Panthers to mediocrity each year ?
And there's no way you're having Ling back as a player. Because if you do you're gonna call for him to be player coach the following year. And he ain't no roll over tickle my belly, three bags full sort of chap. |
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Post by tootootrain on Jan 21, 2018 17:07:11 GMT
How hard do you think it must be to find a person that would accept the terms of coaching the Panthers to mediocrity each year ? I think the primary issue is finding someone who'd work with Moran. The ice hockey world is a fairly tight-knit community, word spreads. |
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iginla
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Post by iginla on Jan 21, 2018 17:23:48 GMT
How hard do you think it must be to find a person that would accept the terms of coaching the Panthers to mediocrity each year ? I think the primary issue is finding someone who'd work with Moran. The ice hockey world is a fairly tight-knit community, word spreads. And that's the BIG problem. Reputations count for a lot,people talk and people ask questions. If they don't like what they hear,they ain't coming,unless they're desperate ! #Adey |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2018 18:33:51 GMT
I think the primary issue is finding someone who'd work with Moran. The ice hockey world is a fairly tight-knit community, word spreads. And that's the BIG problem. Reputations count for a lot,people talk and people ask questions. If they don't like what they hear,they ain't coming,unless they're desperate ! #Adey Blazer only came back in 2005 because he needed a job before going back to Canada . He wasn't keen on GM either |
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simonm
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Post by simonm on Jan 21, 2018 18:48:32 GMT
Blazer, 8 seasons a Panthers coach average of 3rd place in the league never winning it.... Coach of Sheffield 5 years, league winner 4 times.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2018 18:53:11 GMT
Blazer, 8 seasons a Panthers coach average of 3rd place in the league never winning it.... Coach of Sheffield 5 years, league winner 4 times. He was the best coach this country has seen in my opinion. Neilson could only dream of being as good. One year Blazer signed a team in 2 weeks and went on to win the playoffs (isl days) |
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simonm
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Post by simonm on Jan 21, 2018 19:02:07 GMT
He was a player that wanted to win, no quarter given or asked for and he was no different a coach....
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2018 19:10:51 GMT
Blazer, 8 seasons a Panthers coach average of 3rd place in the league never winning it.... Coach of Sheffield 5 years, league winner 4 times. He was the best coach this country has seen in my opinion. Neilson could only dream of being as good. One year Blazer signed a team in 2 weeks and went on to win the playoffs (isl days) Blazer was good, but best in this country, I would argue Kurt Kleinendorst was a better coach. |
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simonm
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Post by simonm on Jan 21, 2018 19:19:59 GMT
For me Rocky Sagenuik..... My type of player and would have been my type of coach.
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Post by Old Timer on Jan 21, 2018 19:27:43 GMT
Blazer, 8 seasons a Panthers coach average of 3rd place in the league never winning it.... Coach of Sheffield 5 years, league winner 4 times. Agreed, but it was time of Sky’s the Limit in the Steelers budget. Before the fall out that brought |
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simonm
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Post by simonm on Jan 21, 2018 19:34:56 GMT
Doesn't stop them hanging league title banners....
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iginla
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Post by iginla on Jan 21, 2018 19:35:20 GMT
Blazer, 8 seasons a Panthers coach average of 3rd place in the league never winning it.... Coach of Sheffield 5 years, league winner 4 times. He was the best coach this country has seen in my opinion. Neilson could only dream of being as good. One year Blazer signed a team in 2 weeks and went on to win the playoffs (isl days) But was he the best Pidge. He only usually won anything where the big money was being spent. Panthers he won little. Steelers when they spent big he won loads. Steelers when they were skint he won nothing. Back to Panthers again he won nothing. So that could tell you two things. He wasn't as good as he was cracked up to be. And Panthers don't spend enough ! |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2018 19:54:00 GMT
He was the best coach this country has seen in my opinion. Neilson could only dream of being as good. One year Blazer signed a team in 2 weeks and went on to win the playoffs (isl days) Blazer was good, but best in this country, I would argue Kurt Kleinendorst was a better coach. KK was decent but again his budget that year was huge, reported £1m+ when the storm won the league. They were quality though |
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Yotes
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Post by Yotes on Jan 21, 2018 20:38:53 GMT
Let's see if I can answer those questions asked of me or correct some misconceptions of what I've written... Yes I think Panthers wage bill is comparable to other teams possibly even the highest (prepared to accept this)... Of percentage generated revenue i think it's not the highest, nowhere near, which I think we all agree on. Of course a wage capped sport can be competitive, but we don't have a wage capped sport so it doesn't apply to our league or the decisions being made by Blacks management team. What I would like you to consider however is just how you personally would be treated if you didn't deliver what your customer\boss required of you. How many years do you think you'd be asked to come back on Monday ? ..... Not many I'd hazard, your boss would soon get disillusioned and sack your sorry hairy bum. But we don't have a disillusioned owner,so the ONLY conclusion is that his management are delivering what he wants, Moran and Nielson are doing a good job for the person who pays them.. Because I don't believe for one second that Black suffers fool's lightly, do you ? So what we know is that Panthers don't spend to win the league, and we agree they could spend more without it creating any financial instability in the club.. So as much as the games are close (maybe) or designed to be an exciting entertaining watch of an evening they are NOT a result of the Panthers organisation being as competitive as they could be. And that like it or not, agree with it or not in my mind makes it entertainment rather than a truely competitive sport. And that is absolutely 100% spot on mate. Totally and undoubtedly true in every sense. It's also not what the original argument was: And if your team was doing too well, how easy would it be to unsettle your lines, play players on the wrong wing... That suggests something far more sinister than Black only being interested in the bottom line and being happy with the work Gary and Corey do to bring that in. Again, that is not news to anyone and is probably the singularly most recurring theme on this forum. It's interesting too that Iggy agrees with you entirely, but then says Black was close to replacing Neilson for his performance? So, he wasn't happy with what he was getting from him, and did actually care about on-ice performance as well as the balance sheet? |
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iginla
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Post by iginla on Jan 21, 2018 21:01:53 GMT
I think Black cares about winning,but probably because these days it gets you in Europe. 😉
He cares about profits far more though.
I just keep coming back though to that thought that I’m watching something that is “fixed” or “massaged” in some way by virtue of Panthers icing a team which is competative but not the real deal,because it’s purposely being held back by underspending to suit other teams.
Just makes me think,why should I put 100% effort into supporting my team,when my teams management do not put maximum effort in.
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simonm
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Post by simonm on Jan 21, 2018 22:18:43 GMT
Yotes, but that's NOT the original post.... That's an answer to a later question...
Forgive me but you're a moderator here, yet your posts are misleading with what seems the intention of instigate an argument.
Cease and desist.
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Yotes
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Post by Yotes on Jan 21, 2018 22:50:47 GMT
From the OP then: Different clubs have different financial obligations that they have to meet. A new club started where no hockey has ever been played before could well need quick success to establish a fan base. Other clubs with say historicaly fickle supporters could well need to win the league, whilsts others maintain a level or growing supporter base with success in challenge competitions and play-offs. It's a business, no one out to destroy another club but instead everyone needs to take a share of the pie to meet their financial obligations..... and a smart businessman would understand this. So I've seen new clubs start and gain multiple success and fickle supporter base clubs win leagues again and again and maintain their supporter base and over the past 33 years the most consistently supported and financially stable club in the country win one league title. And In a relatively small league, even with the vagaries of poor coaching and player attitudes in my mind it's not something that could have occured without some level of design. And consider that the success of our European adventures of late where as a club we can 'do our best' as it effects no one domestically. So collusion between the clubs seems to be the point, other clubs need to win more than us - as we'll show up whatever happens - so we let them. As I've said, it's hardly an elephant in the room to say Black cares more about how much money we make him than he does whether we win owt. The forum a lot of the time is basically everyone sat round saying "look at that chuffing great elephant". |
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Mozzy
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Post by Mozzy on Jan 21, 2018 23:40:31 GMT
Blazer, 8 seasons a Panthers coach average of 3rd place in the league never winning it.... Coach of Sheffield 5 years, league winner 4 times. Agreed, but it was time of Sky’s the Limit in the Steelers budget. Before the fall out that brought Incorrect. Blaisdell had the money that Darren Brown spent, with which he won the grand slam. He coached a team of players that weren't getting paid and ensured they all stuck together. After this his boss was Norton Lea, he bled the club dry and it was on it's knees by the time Bob Phillips took over. Blaisdell continued to win in spite of Lea doing nothing to promote the club in any way. To suggest he only won because of the money is just wrong, he was coach after the sky had fell in on the money issues. As said before he put a team together in 2 weeks that won the playoffs. No mean feat. Blaisdell and Kleinendorst (sp?) were the coaches of the two best teams this country has ever seen imo. |
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