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Post by wgray on Dec 5, 2017 17:57:51 GMT
I think an apology would be the best method of sorting the situation, if I was in your position and I new I’d done nothing wrong I would still apologise if there was any chance that it would allow me to continue supporting the Panthers. You don’t have to mean it but what’s to lose? The issue is that an apology may be taken by Neil Black et al as an admission of guilt, regardless of how it's phrased, and therefore taken as justification for the ban. To touch upon an earlier post, Rob not attending doesn't harm the Panthers at all, but his being banned works as a warning to others, so why would Neil Black choose to rescind it? Look at it from his (businessman) point of view. What's in it for him? As is, he has very public warning to others who may wish to 'take him on' (I know this isn't what Rob was doing but I doubt Neil Black feels the same, hence the ban). It could be argued that Rob became the unknowing martyr to Neil Black's cause. I understand that Black may view the apology is justification but I’m unsure what other methods there are available. As you say, Black is a business man, you could try and hurt his pocket somehow, get people with power involved somehow, MP’s, solicitors etc. Give the club some bad publicity and hope it effects sponsorship but it’s very unlikely that it will be successful. For now I think the best route would be an apology.
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Post by pingchowchi on Dec 5, 2017 18:07:50 GMT
The issue is that an apology may be taken by Neil Black et al as an admission of guilt, regardless of how it's phrased, and therefore taken as justification for the ban. You could turn this on its head, if the ban is rescinded without an apology from Rob a lot of people will see that as Black et al admitting that the ban was unjustified in the first place, which is why I cant see it being lifted without an apology.
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Post by tootootrain on Dec 5, 2017 19:02:06 GMT
To be honest I can't see them rescinding the ban, with or without an apology.
Rob being banned means little to Neil Black and the Panthers, but the evidence he is willing to ban those who 'disagree' with him is actually worth something. This is why I think Rob should just go to games regardless.
There is a vast difference between showing the wider fanbase you'll ban those who 'step out of line' and actually being able to enforce said ban.
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iginla
Chick Zamick
Posts: 13,375
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Post by iginla on Dec 5, 2017 19:50:37 GMT
I’m just wondering what questions a solicitor would ask.
Q. What evidence do they have for banning you ? A. None,other than Neil Blacks word Rob was abusive.
I would think there would be a heck of a lot more people there at the Q+A who would be prepared to prove this to be untrue.
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Post by kievthegreat on Dec 5, 2017 20:27:44 GMT
I’m just wondering what questions a solicitor would ask. Q. What evidence do they have for banning you ? A. None,other than Neil Blacks word Rob was abusive. I would think there would be a heck of a lot more people there at the Q+A who would be prepared to prove this to be untrue. I don't think he'd have any recourse. They can choose not to accept his custom because he doesn't like people whose surname also works as a first name. As long as it's not discriminating against gender, race, etc.... The only thing I'd imagine you'd have a case for is if you had tickets or season tickets bought and hadn't broken the terms and conditions you'd be entitled to your money back as the club would then be reneging on a contract.
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iginla
Chick Zamick
Posts: 13,375
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Post by iginla on Dec 5, 2017 20:49:38 GMT
Well yes,but that’s the point. A solicitor would argue....where is the proof to argue Rob had done anything wrong to warrant the ban ?
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Post by pantherdman on Dec 5, 2017 21:09:18 GMT
How did they get your name and address? Was there a data protection breach?
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Post by kievthegreat on Dec 5, 2017 21:20:03 GMT
Well yes,but that’s the point. A solicitor would argue....where is the proof to argue Rob had done anything wrong to warrant the ban ? It's a moral question not a legal one, solicitors deal with the later. Morally Scott Rob has done nothing wrong, but on the flip side Black hasn't done anything legally wrong unless the club have taken money from Rob and not upheld their end of the deal.
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Post by tootootrain on Dec 6, 2017 8:36:22 GMT
Indeed,
The club can refuse entry for any reason they like, as long as they don't breach discrimination law, and they aren't answerable to anyone for it.
We may like to think of the Panthers as being 'ours', because it existed before Neil Black etc came in and needs our attendance to survive, but in this respect it's actually little different to many other businesses. The difference is we often choose to give our utmost loyalty to a sports team, which is why many think we have some sort of ownership over it. We don't.
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Post by Rob Scott on Dec 6, 2017 9:42:58 GMT
The issue is that an apology may be taken by Neil Black et al as an admission of guilt, regardless of how it's phrased, and therefore taken as justification for the ban. To touch upon an earlier post, Rob not attending doesn't harm the Panthers at all, but his being banned works as a warning to others, so why would Neil Black choose to rescind it? Look at it from his (businessman) point of view. What's in it for him? As is, he has very public warning to others who may wish to 'take him on' (I know this isn't what Rob was doing but I doubt Neil Black feels the same, hence the ban). It could be argued that Rob became the unknowing martyr to Neil Black's cause. I understand that Black may view the apology is justification but I’m unsure what other methods there are available. As you say, Black is a business man, you could try and hurt his pocket somehow, get people with power involved somehow, MP’s, solicitors etc. Give the club some bad publicity and hope it effects sponsorship but it’s very unlikely that it will be successful. For now I think the best route would be an apology. The team are (rightly so) getting a lot of good publicity at the moment so I don't really want to go down that route if I can help it. That's why I tried the private email route before the more public social media attempt. I honestly feel it would be in the best interests of all parties if this just quietly went away. I won't give up fighting the ban because I strongly feel that it's unjust. So, the only way this will go away is if they rescind the ban. That doesn't need to be publicly or with an apology. I'm just a fan who wants to support the team. I don't wish any ill towards the club at all. I have started to properly explore some more options this week but I will try a private email again before doing anything else.
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Post by Rob Scott on Dec 6, 2017 9:46:53 GMT
How did they get your name and address? Was there a data protection breach? From booking the tickets i'd guess.
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Post by stevejackson on Dec 6, 2017 11:17:42 GMT
My thoughts are that Black is not going to lift the ban, he wants a lesson taught and a message put out. We know the club reads the cage and other forms of social media relating to the Panthers, to know what is being said. Rob is banned for the season, I guess, from next year he will be allowed back in. Judging by some of the comments, not necessary on here but certainly on facebook and whilst Robs postings have kept to the facts the replies have been very critical of the club, GM and NB and I feel that if things escalate and the club receives widespread adverse publicity directly relating to this issue then they might decide to ban Rob indefinitely. Those who have had dealings with NB and certainly GM know that they do hold grudges and can be petty minded when it suits them.
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Post by pantherdman on Dec 6, 2017 12:37:02 GMT
How did they get your name and address? Was there a data protection breach? From booking the tickets i'd guess. But the ban stems from a conversation outside of the arena? How did the panthers get your name. Also, the arena can’t give out personal information to anyone without very good reason. A heated debate in a bar wouldn’t be a good enough reason. That could be your legal angle, but it would probably be against the arena. I assume the supporters trust are taking up your case?
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Post by tootootrain on Dec 6, 2017 13:26:20 GMT
But the ban stems from a conversation outside of the arena? How did the panthers get your name. Also, the arena can’t give out personal information to anyone without very good reason. A heated debate in a bar wouldn’t be a good enough reason. That could be your legal angle, but it would probably be against the arena. I assume the supporters trust are taking up your case? Good point 'Pantherdman'. The Motorpoint Arena's terms and conditions don't state they can release your contact details to a promoter so, unless Panthers managed to get your details from elsewhere Rob, the arena could be in breach of the Data Protection Act (1998). Of course, as 'Pantherdman' says, this would only give you grounds to pursue the Motorpoint Arena, but depending on how you feel, this may be something to look into.
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Post by Rob Scott on Dec 6, 2017 13:33:15 GMT
From booking the tickets i'd guess. But the ban stems from a conversation outside of the arena? How did the panthers get your name. Also, the arena can’t give out personal information to anyone without very good reason. A heated debate in a bar wouldn’t be a good enough reason. That could be your legal angle, but it would probably be against the arena. I assume the supporters trust are taking up your case? Unfortunately not, the decision of the board after taking advice was that as the ban is personal and doesn't mention the trust it would not be a matter for them to take up.
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nate24
Greg Hadden
Posts: 1,415
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Post by nate24 on Dec 6, 2017 13:35:36 GMT
Emailing them all the time isn’t working, give them some space. and when the do reply do not reply straight way, make them think you are busy. You'll be sure to get another date eventually.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Dec 6, 2017 15:06:50 GMT
I think Black probably got Rob’s name from the Trust website. I wasn’t at the Q&A, but understand that Rob told him that he (Rob) had the threatening letter on his phone. Black puts two and two together and realises who heis talking to. However, I believe that there has been a breach of the data protection act as how did Black know Rob’s home address? The letter was definitely addressed to Rob’s home, and this address does NOT appear on any website or social media site.
I think a measured and rational enquiry to Motorpoint’s Data Protection Officer is in order!
Perhaps, Rob it might be worth getting in touch with Amanda Jacks at the Football Suppporters Federation. She deals with unfair bans etc., and might be able to offer you some general advice, amanda.jacks@fsf.org.uk
If Black doesn’t need a reason to ban anybody (like publicans) then I’m afraid that it looks bleak. If he DOES need a reason, then lets hope that people reading this who were at the Q&A have the guts to contact you and stand as a witness for you. He can’t ban 20odd people, he would be a laughing stock.
For what it’s worth I believe that the people who got Rob banned are, in fact, Supporters Direct, the Trust’s proffesional advisers, and the Trust itself.
Having taken several hundred pounds to set up the first ice hockey supporters trust in the UK, when the going got tough, Supporters Direct certainly got going - as far away as possible!!
Professional advisors urged so much caution that they effectively gagged and bound the Trust and made contradicting Black seem fraught with all sorts of legal proceedings.
The Trust members should have had the cojones to take into account any advice and act anyway. You can’t be sued for slander or libel if you are telling the truth, and the Trust had the evidence in Black and white! (Slip of the shift key, there!)
Rob must be absolutely gutted that things have turned out like this. If you were at the Q&A, offer your support!
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Dec 6, 2017 17:30:07 GMT
What happened to the person who allegedly recorded the Q & A session, 'Sevcik' wasn't it?
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Post by tootootrain on Dec 6, 2017 18:12:21 GMT
The Trust members should have had the cojones to take into account any advice and act anyway. You can’t be sued for slander or libel if you are telling the truth, and the Trust had the evidence in Black and white! (Slip of the shift key, there!)... I whole heartedly agree. Surely this is the very kind of thing that an independent Supporters Trust should be tackling? I joined the NIHST because, given the excellent things Rob was saying whilst leading the way as the interim chairman, I was convinced this was going to be a good thing. I was hoping the NIHST would be something more than the navel gazing circle jerk that the NPSC was, but I'm currently not convinced. Given the way those currently running the trust dropped Rob like a hot brick over this issue, I am not planning to re-new my membership.
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Post by pantherdman on Dec 6, 2017 22:00:51 GMT
I find it shocking that the supporters are not assisting you, This had got to be their purpose? Hasn’t it? A link between supporters and the club? Not fit for purpose then. I also find it a bit out of character for black to ban one fan, for no reason? If everything happened exactly as you say, it would be very interesting to find out how they got hold of your name and address. Could the supporters trust have given it to the club? Could you be the fall guy?
Too difficult to work out what’s going on here without all the exact facts and details.
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EMB
Randall Weber
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Post by EMB on Dec 6, 2017 22:30:42 GMT
What happened to the person who allegedly recorded the Q & A session, 'Sevcik' wasn't it? Sevcik has been very quiet for a couple of months, mind you he only surfaces when there’s an axe to grind or he’s trying to dump someone in the poo poo. Obviously the players have been behaving themselves as that’s the only time you hear him.
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EMB
Randall Weber
Posts: 4,031
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Post by EMB on Dec 6, 2017 22:39:20 GMT
I find it shocking that the supporters are not assisting you, This had got to be their purpose? Hasn’t it? A link between supporters and the club? Not fit for purpose then. I also find it a bit out of character for black to ban one fan, for no reason? If everything happened exactly as you say, it would be very interesting to find out how they got hold of your name and address. Could the supporters trust have given it to the club? Could you be the fall guy? Too difficult to work out what’s going on here without all the exact facts and details. i It makes you wonder if this ban is almost to scare people off from this Supporters Trust, it looks like a few feathers have been ruffled or Black and Moran are worried about having to declare or make publics things about the club you all know what a closed shop they are. They’re using fright tactics which makes them look very shifty. I hope you make enquiries Rob or ring citizens advice about the leaking of your address and where you stand on this ban being as the incident didn’t have anything to do with the arena.
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Post by tootootrain on Dec 6, 2017 22:51:32 GMT
...where you stand on this ban being as the incident didn’t have anything to do with the arena. The arena hasn't banned Rob, a promoter (Nottingham Panthers) have. As already stated, Panthers can choose to ban anyone for any reason, as long as that reason doesn't breach discrimination law (the so-called 'Protected Characteristics'). Those characteristics are; - Age. - Being or becoming a transsexual person. - Being married or in a civil partnership. - Being pregnant or on maternity leave. - Disability. - Race including colour, nationality, ethnic or national origin. - Religion, belief or lack of religion/belief. - Sex. - Sexual orientation.
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Post by Rob Scott on Dec 7, 2017 11:20:54 GMT
The Trust members should have had the cojones to take into account any advice and act anyway. You can’t be sued for slander or libel if you are telling the truth, and the Trust had the evidence in Black and white! (Slip of the shift key, there!)... I whole heartedly agree. Surely this is the very kind of thing that an independent Supporters Trust should be tackling? I joined the NIHST because, given the excellent things Rob was saying whilst leading the way as the interim chairman, I was convinced this was going to be a good thing. I was hoping the NIHST would be something more than the navel gazing circle jerk that the NPSC was, but I'm currently not convinced. Given the way those currently running the trust dropped Rob like a hot brick over this issue, I am not planning to re-new my membership. I agree that the Supporters Trust should as well as many other things be a body to support the rights and wants of the fans. Unfortunately because of the stance and actions of the club people have become scared to stand up. I think the Supporters Trust has helped to achieve some positive changes and could still be a good thing going forwards. It does need some help at this point and hopefully when the board elections come around some people will step forward and help to carry it on in a positive way.
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Post by Rob Scott on Dec 7, 2017 11:24:27 GMT
I find it shocking that the supporters are not assisting you, This had got to be their purpose? Hasn’t it? A link between supporters and the club? Not fit for purpose then. I also find it a bit out of character for black to ban one fan, for no reason? If everything happened exactly as you say, it would be very interesting to find out how they got hold of your name and address. Could the supporters trust have given it to the club? Could you be the fall guy? Too difficult to work out what’s going on here without all the exact facts and details. We all know that the real reason for my ban is that I was the guy behind the Supporters Trust taking off. NB obviously didn't want to engage for whatever reasons people want to draw for themselves. By banning me he has effectively cut the head off the snake. I wasn't backed by the trust and hence stepped down. I really do hope that someone with drive and energy takes on the chairman role and starts to push this forward again. It can only be a positive for all the fans of the Nottingham Panthers in the short, medium and long term.
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