Caesar
Matt Myers
Posts: 1,769
|
Post by Caesar on Jan 31, 2014 12:31:27 GMT
Personally, yes. A full strength team would be nowhere as good as last years, but, would be more than capable of getting closer to Belfast. Take Belfast out of the league table and its actually quite close! The overall standard of this years teams is poor in my opinion, it must be cos we are shocking and look where we are!
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 31, 2014 12:42:42 GMT
Unfortunately we'll never know as it's all ifs & buts.
I personally think Belfast would be in a similar position regardless of how injuries have affected us. They've shown a level of consistency that no other team has come close to.
|
|
|
Post by spik on Jan 31, 2014 12:49:50 GMT
I would worry if having no injuries had we not played better. lol But certainly we have had far too many unsettling problems all told.
|
|
Yotes
Forum Admin
Posts: 16,424
|
Post by Yotes on Jan 31, 2014 13:10:46 GMT
Kowalski was a big loss for so long, even though we got a decent replacement in Neil, and we've been very light at the back at times, although again we've not been shy of bringing in replacements.
I think we'd obviously be closer, but I don't think we'd be out front. Belfast have been very good, consistently.
Still, 2 to play for, then keep the better bits and go again.
|
|
|
Post by BlogFromBlock15! on Jan 31, 2014 14:52:56 GMT
I actually think the answer is yes, but only marginally.
IMO Belfast have been better than I thought they would be at the start of the season and they deserve credit.
Not sure the balance in our squad has been right all season, regardless of injuries.
|
|
|
Post by ted logan on Jan 31, 2014 15:29:40 GMT
Injuries have played a massive part in our lack of league success I feel. Losing key players for weeks/months at a time will have an impact on any team in this league. They just don't have the resources to carry numerous squad members to cover for such eventualities.
We've lost the best NM in the league for 3 months; the toughest guy (best stay at home d-man??) in the league for 3 months; one of the best (if not the best) dmen in the league for over a month. Add to that injuries along the way to other key players such as Lee, Clarke, Loyns etc and now Farmer and Werner (again). We've had players playing injured; players logging to many minutes; players playing out of position; players in and out, disruption to lines. It's just been a complete train wreck of a season. You could argue that recruitment has played a part too though - Wren and Capraro were not good enough; going back to 3 import D could be viewed as an error.
Still don't think we'd be top of the table but would like to think that with a more settled line up, we would be pushing Belfast a bit more than we are now. Belfast have been far and away the most consistent team this season.
If we can get something like our best line up on the ice, we should still be looking at a 2nd place finish and there are still 2 more trophies to play for.
|
|
|
Post by pantherdman on Jan 31, 2014 19:48:22 GMT
Tactically inept both on and off the ice.
There was always going to be injuries with the extra workload if the challenge cup. I said at the start of the season we needed to run with extra players both import and Brits. Said we should roll 2 import netminders.
When quality Brits became available we passed them up leaving the competition stronger. We signed cover when it was too late and rushed unfit players back and played players out of position. Forward planning would have avoided this.
We still continue to play gung-ho hockey which fails against a good team with a solid defence. It happens time and time again. Last season was the fluke, we luckily got an unbelievable team. This season we have been out thought by a newby coach and an average team at Belfast, no disrespect adey and his team are the best in the league this year.
We will sneek a cup and it will be same time next year.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 31, 2014 21:09:46 GMT
This season we have been out thought by a newby coach and an average team at Belfast Adey a newbie coach? You don't help yourself sometimes, fella.
|
|
|
Post by pantherdman on Jan 31, 2014 21:19:41 GMT
So adey is not new to Belfast? Fella?
Not dominating in his first season with a team new, in a different league, with all new players to him? Fella?
Corey and the panthers are making the same mistakes over and over again.
|
|
Shaggy
Forum Moderator
Am I a cynical idealist or an idealistic cynic?
Posts: 10,995
|
Post by Shaggy on Feb 1, 2014 0:00:11 GMT
To answer the original question... absolutely yes. And there are both statistics and logical arguments to support that statement.
Stats first (all taken from the game sheets published on the EIHL website):-
- In 42 domestic games (league & Challenge Cup) we have lost a staggering total of 138 man-games to injury. Which is absolutely insane.
- When it comes to outskaters on the ice, we have outnumbered the opposition only 18 times... have been outnumbered 17 times... with an overall +/- of -6. Now it can be argued that some of that is down to the 14 man-games we have also lost to suspensions... take those into account by removing them from the above stats, and you get a revised set of figures of having more outskaters in 21 games, still being outnumbered in 16 games, and having an overall +/- of +8 (which over 42 games, with being able to afford a larger squad than several other teams, is quite pitiful).
- we have played with fewer than the allowed complement of 11 imports in no less than 18 games... when you take suspensions into account, that figure drops - but only to 11 games. That's over a quarter of our games.
But the stats tell only part of the story. It's not just how many games lost, it's who we've lost as well and the knock-on effects from that.
- K-Wall missed 25 games through injury, and he's still not back to 100%. That's the netminder voted the league's best last season. The single most crucial playing position on the team. Sure, we brought Neil Conway in, and he certainly helped... but he was no K-Wall.
- Eric Werner, our best D-man, has so far missed 24 games... and is still out. Not only is he (in my opinion and that of many others) our best defensive player, he's also highly effective at supporting the offence on the powerplay.
- We have lost 25 man-games in the netminding department, 49 man-games amongst the forwards... and 61 man-games in the much smaller defensive department, which is far less able to cope being short-handed than the forwards. This has led to forwards (such as Benedict and Loyns) being forced to play on D... reducing their personal effectiveness, and that of both the forward and defensive departments as a whole.
- We all know that chemistry between line-mates is a crucial part of team-building. The lines have been totally screwed up almost since the season started. That reduces effectiveness right across the board.
Yes, other teams have suffered injuries etc (Cardiff's poor luck in the netminding department springs to mind), but no team has done so as badly as we have. And the current league leaders Belfast have got off almost scot-free by comparison. When the slightest little thing can tip the balance in a game... well, we've lost 17 out of those 42 games, and 7 of those losses (all league games) were by just 1 goal... convert those to wins and (taking into account OT/shootout losses) we'd have an extra 9 points... and since 2 of those 7 games were lost to Belfast in regulation, that would put us just 4 points behind the Giants with us having 1 game in hand. Now that's close.
We can't blame all of our woes on injuries, nor can we claim that Belfast's domination this season is purely down to them suffering far less on that front than their most likely challengers... but I am convinced that both statements are at least partially true. This season would have been very different for us without this endless injury crisis, I'm convinced of it.
|
|
|
Post by panthertom93 on Feb 1, 2014 1:22:36 GMT
Yes we'd be challenging with Belfast, but there's a reason they're where they are. Their team are GOOD and consistent which is what you need to win a league. They're not the greatest side I've ever watched, but when they're winning games left right and centre, they don't need to be. In my opinion, our squad last year would have destroyed the league this year.
Loyns looks pretty good since he's come back and we can only guess what he'd have been like over the season.
Henley, in my opinion is a MUST to return next year. Can lose his temper but is such a tough AND quality D-Man
Werner - last years Dman of the year. Broken leg a few weeks in says it all. Horrid luck
Kowalski - biggest and most frustrating injury of the lot. The saying goes "you don't know what you've got till its gone".
Benedict playing on D hasn't helped our forwards.
I honestly beleive the Continetal cup has been the road block that it usually is for league winners but it was worth it.
Corey was pretty much forced to play 3 import D after Matt left. If we can keep farmer Clarke and Lacho next year, then I don't see why Corey wouldn't go with 4 import D.
The word 'IF' can be so annoying at times!
|
|
|
Post by texpef on Feb 1, 2014 1:44:58 GMT
All very true Shaggy and a well thought out arguement however i have to point out (and again this has been mentioned ALOT of times this season) the team at the start of the season was lacking in several areas,
1. We were short of a GB quality brit which then unbalanced all the lines, we had little choice but to let Meyers go but then we dilly dallied in replacing him till we had little choice again but to offer an open ended deal to the only brit left who would give the club a deal (creating a lovely safety net in case it didnt work out for him in the States) not ideal when you are planning on defending your triple from the last season. Instead what the club did do is bring in two untried and untested brits on a so called trophy challenging team and then having to create lines and mix and match players around them. I am not saying i havent been impressed by Norton and Boxill (Boxill in particular) but neither are the finished item and neither currently imho would get on the GB team. Norton especially i feel is making what i see as rookie mistakes (which he will get better from) but when you consider we released Meyers who is coming in to his prime and we have Weaver who really is showing his age this season then to me at least it makes little sense...
2. Talking of unbalanced lines neither our play maker nor our goal scorer from last season were adequately replaced, Wren for Ling was always going to be a fighting battle although it may be argued that they SHOULD have been comparable to some extent but most of ours and others fanbases could not see where the goals scored by Graham were going to come from (and it has been proved right too, compared to last season we are seriously lacking in the sniper department). Players have come and gone this season but non have still replaced last seasons goal scorer.
3. Last point is so obvious to be mental especially from a coach who was a defenceman and has seen last season what having 4 imports at the back can do. Signing JUST 3 import D has been the biggest mistake of the season for me. Yes i know that we were short of a quality brit (see above which could have influenced the decision) but i suspect no other team in the country who wanted to win trophies would have done that. Signing only 3 meant that the team had to then either play Weaver to much (and it certainly has lead to alot of mistakes from him this season imho) or being forced to play what is essentially a rookie (see above also). If both had been slotted in to a 6 or more Defensive corps then mistakes could have been minimised but this has not been the case ALL season because surprise surprise going with only 3 when an injury has occured it has had a much more dramatic impact than if we had more cover which in all honestly has probably lead to even more injuries with the remaining players...
YES it has had a massive impact losing what is imho the best keeper in the league, what is probably one of (and was voted last season THE ) best defenceman in the league and again imho one the most effective and influential defenceman in Henley and even with replacements none are going to be as good (and havent been to the ones that were replaced) but to say we would be knocking on Belfasts' door is shall we say ambitious as i personally think we still needed quite a few personel changes even if the team had been fully fit...
|
|
The Flying Shirt
Paul Adey
Adam #7 #47 - Forever #1
Posts: 6,640
Member is Online
|
Post by The Flying Shirt on Feb 1, 2014 2:40:44 GMT
All very true Shaggy and a well thought out arguement however i have to point out (and again this has been mentioned ALOT of times this season) the team at the start of the season was lacking in several areas, 1. We were short of a GB quality brit which then unbalanced all the lines, we had little choice but to let Meyers go but then we dilly dallied in replacing him till we had little choice again but to offer an open ended deal to the only brit left who would give the club a deal (creating a lovely safety net in case it didnt work out for him in the States) not ideal when you are planning on defending your triple from the last season. Instead what the club did do is bring in two untried and untested brits on a so called trophy challenging team and then having to create lines and mix and match players around them. I am not saying i havent been impressed by Norton and Boxill (Boxill in particular) but neither are the finished item and neither currently imho would get on the GB team. Norton especially i feel is making what i see as rookie mistakes (which he will get better from) but when you consider we released Meyers who is coming in to his prime and we have Weaver who really is showing his age this season then to me at least it makes little sense... 2. Talking of unbalanced lines neither our play maker nor our goal scorer from last season were adequately replaced, Wren for Ling was always going to be a fighting battle although it may be argued that they SHOULD have been comparable to some extent but most of ours and others fanbases could not see where the goals scored by Graham were going to come from (and it has been proved right too, compared to last season we are seriously lacking in the sniper department). Players have come and gone this season but non have still replaced last seasons goal scorer. 3. Last point is so obvious to be mental especially from a coach who was a defenceman and has seen last season what having 4 imports at the back can do. Signing JUST 3 import D has been the biggest mistake of the season for me. Yes i know that we were short of a quality brit (see above which could have influenced the decision) but i suspect no other team in the country who wanted to win trophies would have done that. Signing only 3 meant that the team had to then either play Weaver to much (and it certainly has lead to alot of mistakes from him this season imho) or being forced to play what is essentially a rookie (see above also). If both had been slotted in to a 6 or more Defensive corps then mistakes could have been minimised but this has not been the case ALL season because surprise surprise going with only 3 when an injury has occured it has had a much more dramatic impact than if we had more cover which in all honestly has probably lead to even more injuries with the remaining players... YES it has had a massive impact losing what is imho the best keeper in the league, what is probably one of (and was voted last season THE ) best defenceman in the league and again imho one the most effective and influential defenceman in Henley and even with replacements none are going to be as good (and havent been to the ones that were replaced) but to say we would be knocking on Belfasts' door is shall we say ambitious as i personally think we still needed quite a few personel changes even if the team had been fully fit... Can't argue with a lot of that. Shame that after getting the huge monkey off our back last year this years team showed such a lack of ambition.
|
|
Shaggy
Forum Moderator
Am I a cynical idealist or an idealistic cynic?
Posts: 10,995
|
Post by Shaggy on Feb 1, 2014 11:58:27 GMT
I have to take issue with the comments that the clubs "showed a lack of ambition" etc... especially when it comes to the Brit pack. I get the feeling that quite a few posters think that the Panthers live in some sort of dreamland where they assume that 'want = get'. Dream on.
We lost Matt Myers due to circumstances beyond our control - he got married to a Cardiff lass and moved back home. The same would have happened had he been playing for Belfast or Sheffield or whoever. Very bad news for us, but something we knew was likely at some point or another. Replacing him is hard... much, much harder than what appears to be the prevalent attitude of "oh, just get another top Brit". Yeah, right... like it's that easy. It's not just about the money (and although we are surely one of the richest clubs, there are others who will gladly throw stupid amounts of cash around) - there are plenty of other factors as well. Some have geographical preferences, others would prefer to play for this coach or that, play with particular team-mates etc. What do some people expect - that the Panthers could just say "right, we want Robert Dowd, Craig Peacock and Mark Richardson" and it's automatically going to happen? Robert Farmer wanted to try his hand overseas... should we have somehow stopped him from doing that? - of course not.
I agree that we didn't replace the likes of Fox, Graham & Ling with like-for-like... maybe that's at least partly a failure on the part of those doing the recruitment.. but again, we cannot simply expect to get everything we want just because it's us. What are we - the more obnoxious end of a certain other fanbase that expects nothing but success all the time, no excuses?
Recruitment is a chancy thing at the best of times... with Brits, we need more (so instead of moaning or blithering on about scrapping the import limit, why don't people actually support grass-roots hockey and help to encourage development?)... with imports, you never really know what you're going to get in advance. All the stats and recommendations in the world mean very little. Maybe the club overachieved on that front last season... maybe they've underachieved this season - who knows? I bet none of those complaining could do anywhere near as good a job of it - I know I couldn't.
Some people need to wake up and join the real world.
|
|
|
Post by texpef on Feb 1, 2014 12:16:51 GMT
Shaggy come on i didnt write lack of ambition did i? It seemed to me that the club though seemed happy with signing Farmer on an open ended contract and bring in the kids we did. As a fan i can see this was far from ideal from a club that were defending the triple but that was the decision they made, who knows maybe they tried to get dowd/peacock/shields etc, it certainly was not rumoured so imho probably unlikely but who knows eh..
As for the imports well, ignoring the fact we put all our eggs in a very small basket in defence, looking back pretty much the entire fanbase of hockey in the UK said we were light up front. We had not replaced the sheer determination of last seasons captain, we hadnt replaced the character and skill of Ling and hadnt replaced the goal scoring of Graham. This is not hindsight as it was highlighted as an issue even before the season started. YES i completely agree unless you have seen said import play then it can be a bit of a lottery as to who you end up with on the ice but surely if the fans could see we were light then our now very experienced coach should have? Personally i felt the club last season did not OVER achieve but actually delivered what their reputations were expected to, which regarding our league challenges, previous players have stunningly failed to do. This season the club have a cast iron alibi in that the team has been decimated with injuries pretty much from the start and it looks like it will last through to the end but imho we would have still fallen a long way short on expectations even if the team had been healthy...
|
|
oldman
Simon Hunt
The World is full of experts
Posts: 1,111
|
Post by oldman on Feb 1, 2014 14:48:06 GMT
obviously any season with minimum disruption to the lines would have been better, did we have as good a squad as last season anyway, possibly not you cant replace guys like Ling and Fox. However this season could never be as good as the last one .
|
|
Jasper
Jade Galbraith
Posts: 183
|
Post by Jasper on Feb 1, 2014 15:09:16 GMT
Texpef, tell me how we 'dilly dallied' replacing Matthew Myers?
You do realise that there are maybe 10 British forwards at most of Myers' quality? and two of those were already playing for us.
Please tell me who you would you have signed that might have been available?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 1, 2014 15:40:45 GMT
Injuries have mullered us this season. We would be closer to Belfast but imo the quality isn't the same as last season.
Henley & Werner were both huge losses. K wall also although I really do question if the club realized the extent of his injury. I think they would have looked for a higher quality replacement had they known.
|
|
|
Post by texpef on Feb 1, 2014 15:52:18 GMT
Texpef, tell me how we 'dilly dallied' replacing Matthew Myers? You do realise that there are maybe 10 British forwards at most of Myers' quality? and two of those were already playing for us. Please tell me who you would you have signed that might have been available? Myers must have had his wedding booked months if not years ago and it was common knowledge amongst the fans he was wanting to move his new family back to their roots (so the management at the club must have known) and i dont blame him one single jot for doing so, everybody has to do whats right regards their family. Given this, then the hunt for a replacement should have started well before the season ended yet as far as i can tell the only approach to any of the available brits was to Farmer who made it very clear he was going to try a season in the states. Now i accept some would never have come to Nottingham regardless of the package offered but as with Blight now going to sheffield if you dont ask you dont get, but there were plenty of available brits at the tme, Peacock, Shields, Dowd, Farmer, Dave Philips, Hill, Greg Owen, Ash Tait and even Danny Meyers but who did we end up signing? Boxill a young man who has never played in this country and Norton another young man who hasnt held down a permanent roster position in the EIHL... you tell me, did the club try hard enough to replace Myers in the close season?...
|
|
|
Post by panthertom93 on Feb 1, 2014 15:57:58 GMT
Texpef, tell me how we 'dilly dallied' replacing Matthew Myers? You do realise that there are maybe 10 British forwards at most of Myers' quality? and two of those were already playing for us. Please tell me who you would you have signed that might have been available? Myers must have had his wedding booked months if not years ago and it was common knowledge amongst the fans he was wanting to move his new family back to their roots (so the management at the club must have known) and i dont blame him one single jot for doing so, everybody has to do whats right regards their family. Given this, then the hunt for a replacement should have started well before the season ended yet as far as i can tell the only approach to any of the available brits and there were plenty at the tme, Peacock, Shields, Dowd, Farmer, Dave Philips, Hill, Greg Owen, Ash Tait and even Danny Meyers but who did we end up signing? Boxill a young man who has never played in this country and Norton another young man who hasnt held down a permanent roster position in the EIHL... you tell me, did the club try hard enough to replace Myers in the close season?... Although I agree I'd hope the club was trying for a top quality Brit, I don't think any of those would have come to Nottingham. Peacock and shields were always going to be giants, would Danny come back to us after what happened? They all have links to clubs that would (in my opinion) rule them out of coming to us. Boxill was the replacement for Levers, not Myers. He's a 10th forward. We've seen a lot more of him because of the injuries but I have to say, I'm incredibly pleased with him. Norton, although still learning, is becoming like Lacho and Lee have under Neilson and is developing steadily and I can see him being a top D-man in this league soon enough. He's also going to be replacing weaver when weaver retires. I genuinely think Corey was limited but now we have farmer, it SHOULD make things easier for next seasons recruitment. SHOULD.
|
|
|
Post by texpef on Feb 1, 2014 16:03:09 GMT
Peacock is essentially a local lad, why do you think he wouldnt have come to Nottingham? Sheilds is from the North east and has played at several clubs so again why would he not come here? Danny was gutted to go, would he come back? who knows until he is asked..
Both Boxill and Norton are development players as stated, but then if so they are not replacements but ones for the future, as such to be now forced to play them shows how lacking in depth we are this season.
As for better next season i agree Tom it SHOULD be alot better...
|
|
Jasper
Jade Galbraith
Posts: 183
|
Post by Jasper on Feb 1, 2014 16:41:21 GMT
Ok, let's have a look at the names you mentioned: Peacock - had already stated he wanted to have a crack at Europe and was settled in Belfast anyway
Shields - settled in Belfast
Dowd - by their own admission Steelers are paying him a kings ransom. Do you advocate we should have done similar and risked weakening the rest of the team? Plus he has ties in Sheffield
Farmer - already said he wanted to go to North America
Dave Philips - settled in Belfast
Hill - had ties in Cardiff
Greg Owen - retired at the end of last season and wasn't capable of playing at Elite League stsndard any more
Ash Tait - may have been the only realistic option but is belived not to have wanted to have come back to us anyway
Danny Meyers - had signed a two year deal in Sheffield (admittedly that wasn't binding but it does tie him to Sheffield to a degree) and would he have come back given the nature of his departure a year earlier?
I think you display a degree of niaivety and or arrogance if you think we can or will just open the cheque book and expect players who are settled at other clubs to come running.
Plus of those you mentioned, Danny Meyers and David Philips are d men so had we signed either we would still presumably have had three import d men, thus negating your previous argument.
|
|
Jasper
Jade Galbraith
Posts: 183
|
Post by Jasper on Feb 1, 2014 16:54:17 GMT
Peacock is essentially a local lad, why do you think he wouldnt have come to Nottingham? How do you work that out? He was born in Peterborough. His dad played for the club thirty years ago and was sacked mid season when the import limit was cut and you expect him to have some kind of allegiance to us?
|
|
|
Post by tessier26 on Feb 2, 2014 12:31:07 GMT
Its alright saying injuries are to blame but we have'nt signed top class fowards of Ling's and Beauregard's quality. I personally believe after winning the Grand Slam with an undoubtedly expensive team last season, Neil Black knows we'll still pull big crowds in. I think hes spending conservatively this season to generate more profit whilst spending less on player wages.
|
|
|
Post by texpef on Feb 2, 2014 12:42:18 GMT
Jasper these players that arent local lads and thats pretty much all the top brits apart from Lacho have as much allegiance to the club they are currently playing for as any import, yes some marry local lasses and some buy houses but that is no different to imports who settle in a location (see Tendler in Hull). Given enough incentives to the remainder import and brit and they will sign for you, look at what has happened regards Dowd in sheffield, if enough is thrown at a player he will play for you... imho we just didnt do enough to entice those that were available. Yes alot of the players who you quote are now settled where they are currently playing but they certainly werent at the end of last season...
|
|