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Post by pantherdman on Jan 27, 2012 19:50:30 GMT
Unlimited imports and salaries please. wheres good old bosman when you need him?
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Post by oneillthegiant on Jan 27, 2012 22:11:54 GMT
I would of liked the import limit to have gone up by 1, but I'm glad it has not gone down.. There's already too many token Brits in this league who are only playing due to their nationality.
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Shaggy
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Post by Shaggy on Jan 27, 2012 22:43:41 GMT
I would of liked the import limit to have gone up by 1, but I'm glad it has not gone down.. There's already too many token Brits in this league who are only playing due to their nationality. Token Brits? Not that old chestnut again... What has had far more of an effect on bringing standards of play down in this league has been the sheer number of 'token imports' who have fannied around, done naff-all for the club that brough them in, and been swapped to another one. How many of those have we seen just this season, let alone some others? With the apparent exception of David Phiilips, lack of effort or commitment has not exactly been an accusation you could level against the British players - 'token' or not.
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Shaggy
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Post by Shaggy on Jan 27, 2012 22:46:17 GMT
As usual, the Panthers are being held back because nobody else can run their club as well as we can. As unpopular as that statement may be, it's true. How'd you work that one out? What exactly are other clubs doing to hold us back? It can't be forcing us to stick to a wage cap - there isn't one. And what are other clubs doing to hold us back that they aren't doing to the likes of Belfast or Sheffield?
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Post by jerome29 on Jan 28, 2012 9:54:11 GMT
Hello all, Time for me to, well I hope to bring a little common sense to this. In my opinion this league can never be really competitive as teams have massive differences in resoruces, wage bills etc. How do you expect fans from teams like the Capitals, Stars, Flyers to be motivated if they are getting hammered every week and never make the playoffs? In American Football the team with the worst record gets to the first draft pick each season to try and help the team develop. The New England Patriots used to be dreadful and as such they got Tom Brady and have built a successful franchise So here is what I would in our league, all the best Brits are at the big 5 clubs and that is the problem. How do you make things more euqal, well in my humble opinion here is how you do it. We have a 10 team league and depending on final league positions each season I would do the following, so here would be my import levels for next season at present: 1) 10 imports - Belfast Giants 2) 10 imports - Nottingham Panthers 3) 10 imports - Sheffield Steelers 4) 10 imports - Coventry Blaze 5) 10 imports - Cardiff Devils 6) 11 imports - Braehead Clan 7) 11 imports - Edinburgh Capitals 8) 11 imports - Hull Stingrays 9) 12 imports - Dundee Stars 10) 12 imports - Fife Flyers If that doesn't help to try and make a more fairer league each season and give teams at the bottom something to look forward to I don't know what will. These import positions stay for these positions in the league every year. Attachments:
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Shaggy
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Post by Shaggy on Jan 28, 2012 10:24:39 GMT
Which is all very well, jerome29... but it doesn't address any of the real problems. Remember that the EIHL tried the extra import thing for the bottom half of the league previously, and whilst it was a good idea to try it... nothing really came of it.
The problems are nothing to do with the number of imports - you could have 4 imports or 16 imports, and the fundamental problems would remain the same - the lower-ranking clubs cannot afford the level of expenditure of the higher-ranking teams. So what if they can bring more imports in? They'll still only be able to afford a certain standard of import... and that's not going to raise their overall team level.
The problem is money. They need either more money coming in (sponsorship, fans, etc) or less money going out (player salaries, travel costs, etc)... or preferably both. Messing about with the numbers of imports isn't going to change the cost of imports - we in the UK cannot influence those costs... we have to take what the marketplace offers, and we're not a big enough buyer to affect prices.
So the only other area to work on is the cost of British players. How do you bring those down? Not by artificially capping their salaries, but by reducing the scarcity of EIHL Brits (scarcity which pushes prices up - basic economics). Invest in British player development, bring more and better young Brits through... not only will the lower-ranking clubs therefore have better Brits available to them (which will boost their competitiveness) but they will be able to spend - from the same pot of money - overall less on British players... and more on imports. Which means better imports. The higher-ranking teams will benefit as well, of course... but the lower-ranking teams are likely to benefit proportionally more... closing the gap a little between the two groups - making the league more competitive.
If that's not a win-win scenario... what is?
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Post by texpef on Jan 28, 2012 10:30:18 GMT
See your point here Jerome but what happens when they cant afford 10 imports let alone 12, Fife as far as i know still havent got a full quota of imports now and i think it was coventry that said they werent going to sign the maximum number of imports at the start of the season. Yes the "top" brits may well be at the richer clubs but what is different in any other sport in the world? IF all teams had their own junior development then it wouldnt matter to a large degree if there was alot of player movement. Oh and shaggy you are so wrong about imports being blinded that you are to "brits doing no wrong". Some imports may in the view of their fans not be putting in the required effort but its just as possible that the imports arent as good as they were hoping which as always are then compared to the top brits. Being imports it is those players that are most readily and easily sacked and replaced.
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Post by jerome29 on Jan 28, 2012 10:46:44 GMT
Fife are icing this many players at present, this lot played out against the Panthers last week.
2 Muir, Thomas D 0 0 6 4 Wands, Chris D 0 0 2 A 5 Horne, Kyle D 0 0 2 10 Gunn, steve LW 0 0 0 11 Dutiaume, Todd LW 0 0 0 15 Scoon, Josh RW 0 0 0 19 McAlpine, Steve C 0 0 0 20 Hartmanis, Toms LW 0 0 0 21 Maxwell, Tim D 0 0 0 23 Wilson, Jamie C 0 0 0 A 24 Samuel, Andrew C 0 0 2 C 26 Ceman, Dan C 0 1 0 39 Stewart, Danny D 0 1 2 77 Kadic, Denis RW 0 0 0 83 Bakrlik, Frantisek RW 1 0 0
That is 16 players plus the netminder and the back up netminder. I think they could afford 12 imports from europe if they shopped around in Latvia and Slovenia and places like that on the cheap.
Shaggy while I always appreciated everyone has an opinion, please do not talk down to me. Your response comes across that I know nothing and you know everything. I am speaking about a short term fix I agree with everything you said about development of the game and for the future. Just because something has not worked before should we not try it again?
I have an opinion, you have an opinion we are all entitled to do it even if we do disagree.
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Post by richard1969 on Jan 28, 2012 10:51:52 GMT
I dont think Shaggy was talking down to you
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Shaggy
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Post by Shaggy on Jan 28, 2012 10:54:21 GMT
Oh and shaggy you are so wrong about imports being blinded that you are to "brits doing no wrong". Some imports may in the view of their fans not be putting in the required effort but its just as possible that the imports arent as good as they were hoping which as always are then compared to the top brits. Being imports it is those players that are most readily and easily sacked and replaced. Texpef - you really need to get that obsession of yours about me supposedly thinking British players are faultless out of your head. You're way off the mark. British players can be screw-ups as well... take a bow David Phillips, for one. I have simply observed (and I'm not the only one) that in general a British player is less likely to be lazy/unmotivated/whatever than an import. Less likely - not impossible. Nor does that mean that many imports are that way... but you will notice on this forum and others that a much higher percentage of imports come in for that kind of criticism than British players. The Brits may be criticised for being less skilled, but not less motivated. Of course, it could be argued that more attention is paid to the imports, that we have higher expectations of them, so that we are more likely to judge them as failing to meet the expected standard... but at most, I think that would only account for a small part of it. Yes, I'm pro-British players... but I'm not anti-imports, far from it. Nor am I blind to the fact that British players aren't perfect (wish some others would have the corresponding view towards imports - seems that to some people, imports are the only answer). I simply oppose the viewpoint that some appear to have, which is that British players are useless and that we should dump the lot, go all-import, etc (plus other stuff - you know, spend the absolute maximum, don't care what opposition teams go bust, blah blah blah). A bit of balance is what I'm looking for...
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Post by Shaggy on Jan 28, 2012 11:02:12 GMT
I dont think Shaggy was talking down to you Thank-you, Richard... I wasn't. Shaggy while I always appreciated everyone has an opinion, please do not talk down to me. Your response comes across that I know nothing and you know everything. That may be how you perceive it... but that's not how it was intended. I am simply disagreeing with you and setting out (in as logical a fashion as I can manage) my arguments why I disagree and my reasons for that. If you truly think that I'm making out that I supposedly "know everything" - then that's inside your head, not mine. Other people put forward their arguments as well - often in a more forceful or even antagonistic way than myself - but you haven't accused them of the same thing. Why not? Fair enough... and yes, you're right - my proposal is a long-term solution, not short-term. Unfortunately, I remain to be convinced that such a creature as a "short-term fix" even exists... and even if it did, for the reasons stated I believe your proposal isn't one such. If something hasn't worked, isn't the sensible course to try something different? What's the saying? - if you always do what you've always done, you'll always get what you've always got. Quite agree - and nowhere have I even hinted at such, much less said it. Which is why I wonder where your outburst came from...
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Post by jerome29 on Jan 28, 2012 11:20:21 GMT
I dont think Shaggy was talking down to you Thank-you, Richard... I wasn't. That may be how you perceive it... but that's not how it was intended. I am simply disagreeing with you and setting out (in as logical a fashion as I can manage) my arguments why I disagree and my reasons for that. If you truly think that I'm making out that I supposedly "know everything" - then that's inside your head, not mine. Other people put forward their arguments as well - often in a more forceful or even antagonistic way than myself - but you haven't accused them of the same thing. Why not? Fair enough... and yes, you're right - my proposal is a long-term solution, not short-term. Unfortunately, I remain to be convinced that such a creature as a "short-term fix" even exists... and even if it did, for the reasons stated I believe your proposal isn't one such. If something hasn't worked, isn't the sensible course to try something different? What's the saying? - if you always do what you've always done, you'll always get what you've always got. Quite agree - and nowhere have I even hinted at such, much less said it. Which is why I wonder where your outburst came from... It takes a big man to apologise, I am not a big man. Only joking if that is the case I apologise You have not made a response to my Fife current roster part and having 16 odd skaters at present?
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abi
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Post by abi on Jan 28, 2012 11:25:21 GMT
FWIW I think 10 is a pretty happy medium for the state of hockey in this country, and more specifically this league, for the time being.
I would like to see it drop in future, but that depends on how the talent that is currently working up through juniors ends up developing. I don't want to see it reduced unless there's the ability to add one quality/great potential brit to the line up of each team - right now, I know the talent is there, but the biggest hurdle is actually the EPL. Teams there are making very good offers to these young talents - good pay, ice time, nice places to live etc. EIHL needs to be able to better those offers before dropping the import numbers. Teams won't be able to make those offers until there's a degree of financial stability - and this continuity with the import numbers should allow teams, especially newer organisations in the league, to get their finances in a position good enough to catch the good brits.
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Post by Shaggy on Jan 28, 2012 11:38:59 GMT
It takes a big man to apologise, I am not a big man. Only joking if that is the case I apologise Thank-you... appreciated. Not really sure what to make of that, to be honest... OK, so they apparently iced 16 outskaters... of which only 7 were imports - and 3 of those from 'cheap' Europe. All the rest being British, and AFAIK all but 2 of them no older than 25. So - not much in the way of experienced players - meaning, not much in the way of expensive players. That doesn't indicate enough financial strength to sign 10 imports, much less 12. Remember that imports can cost an awful lot more than just their wages... flight, ITCs (which cost close to £1000 IIRC), etc... even housing (you can bet that some of the young local Brits won't require that).
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Post by pantherdman on Jan 28, 2012 13:44:01 GMT
Hello all, Time for me to, well I hope to bring a little common sense to this. In my opinion this league can never be really competitive as teams have massive differences in resoruces, wage bills etc. How do you expect fans from teams like the Capitals, Stars, Flyers to be motivated if they are getting hammered every week and never make the playoffs? In American Football the team with the worst record gets to the first draft pick each season to try and help the team develop. The New England Patriots used to be dreadful and as such they got Tom Brady and have built a successful franchise So here is what I would in our league, all the best Brits are at the big 5 clubs and that is the problem. How do you make things more euqal, well in my humble opinion here is how you do it. We have a 10 team league and depending on final league positions each season I would do the following, so here would be my import levels for next season at present: 1) 10 imports - Belfast Giants 2) 10 imports - Nottingham Panthers 3) 10 imports - Sheffield Steelers 4) 10 imports - Coventry Blaze 5) 10 imports - Cardiff Devils 6) 11 imports - Braehead Clan 7) 11 imports - Edinburgh Capitals 8) 11 imports - Hull Stingrays 9) 12 imports - Dundee Stars 10) 12 imports - Fife Flyers If that doesn't help to try and make a more fairer league each season and give teams at the bottom something to look forward to I don't know what will. These import positions stay for these positions in the league every year. Tom Brady was the #199th draft pick, which proves my point, if you are good enough and work hard enough you can make it to the top. Maybe no import limit would make our Brits better? The best will still make it regardless of number of imports.
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warx
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Post by warx on Jan 28, 2012 14:17:54 GMT
Hello all, Time for me to, well I hope to bring a little common sense to this. In my opinion this league can never be really competitive as teams have massive differences in resoruces, wage bills etc. How do you expect fans from teams like the Capitals, Stars, Flyers to be motivated if they are getting hammered every week and never make the playoffs? In American Football the team with the worst record gets to the first draft pick each season to try and help the team develop. The New England Patriots used to be dreadful and as such they got Tom Brady and have built a successful franchise So here is what I would in our league, all the best Brits are at the big 5 clubs and that is the problem. How do you make things more euqal, well in my humble opinion here is how you do it. We have a 10 team league and depending on final league positions each season I would do the following, so here would be my import levels for next season at present: 1) 10 imports - Belfast Giants 2) 10 imports - Nottingham Panthers 3) 10 imports - Sheffield Steelers 4) 10 imports - Coventry Blaze 5) 10 imports - Cardiff Devils 6) 11 imports - Braehead Clan 7) 11 imports - Edinburgh Capitals 8) 11 imports - Hull Stingrays 9) 12 imports - Dundee Stars 10) 12 imports - Fife Flyers If that doesn't help to try and make a more fairer league each season and give teams at the bottom something to look forward to I don't know what will. These import positions stay for these positions in the league every year. 1- Brady was 6th round pick. 2- New England only turned things around after a few years under their new coach. 3- Jamarcus Russel was a #1 overall pick....about 4 years on he isn't even in the league.
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Shaggy
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Post by Shaggy on Jan 28, 2012 14:33:18 GMT
Tom Brady was the #199th draft pick, which proves my point, if you are good enough and work hard enough you can make it to the top. And if you are lucky enough. It's not as easy as that... In an ideal world, I'd agree with you. Trouble is, British ice hockey is about as far away from ideal as you can get and still see daylight. Precedent would disagree with you... in the form of the ISL. No import limit - hardly any British players. Most teams only ever gave British players the odd shift in an occasional game... some had whole seasons without even doing that - not even a backup netminder. Granted, this was partly due to there being no effective salary cap, and a level of spending which was higher than the EIHL (and which directly contributed to the total collapse of the league)... but isn't that what you constantly advocate as well? The plain fact of the matter is... trusting club owners (in general) to adhere to a 'gentlemen's agreement' or any kind of voluntary restriction - or simply trusting them to be sensible - is, by and large, a losing proposition. There's always going to be one (or two, or three, or...) who will ignore such... and when one does it, others follow. We've been lucky in Nottingham... large fanbase so plenty of cash coming in, and an owner who seems to be more prudent than most of the rest put together. And if we go down the ISL route again, what possible reason is there to expect anything different to happen a second time around? Overspending, British players ignored (which would cripple the GB national team and - like the ISL - put British participation back by years) and teams going bust... even more than they are already. Sure, maybe we could afford it... so what would we end up with - a league with just us, Belfast and Sheffield? Pardon me for not fancying that prospect. The last season of the ISL, finishing with just 5 teams (and Bracknell only barely doing so) was bad enough. Never again...
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