Shaggy
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Am I a cynical idealist or an idealistic cynic?
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Post by Shaggy on Jul 11, 2011 16:26:48 GMT
Shaggy, you are right, there are many families that go to the NIC. But there does appear to be a greater percentage of families in Sheffield, relative to the size of the crowd. Think this is more to do with your location and the ability to attract the casual supporter on a night out. We don't get this casual support much now so rely more heavily on families. Not having been to Sheffield in... errr.... well, several years... I wasn't sure as to the relative proportions (I've not done ANY away games in 3 years, and none at Sheffield for a while before that). You could be right on the casual thing - I certainly do see a fair few people togged up like they're going out clubbing afterwards. That could be expensive for you - I only drink spirits! ;D Seriously - it's unlikely. The Boxing Day game is a no-no, and all 3 of our other games up there are on Sundays... which are impossible if there's a Lions game on, and awkward at best otherwise. The biggest game in the universe (TM)  on Sundays? - how mad is that? I notice that (apart from the Xmas game) all of our home games against you are on Saturdays. That's either very bad luck on the Steelers' part or even worse planning... |
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koop11
Jade Galbraith
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Post by koop11 on Jul 11, 2011 20:48:02 GMT
I just love the arrogance on here. No doubt Neil Black has done a good job but give me a purpose built ice hockey arena in the middle of Cardiff City Centre and I’ll put a competitive team on the ice that makes a small profit. Hell, I might even win the league.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 11, 2011 20:57:09 GMT
I love that fans from other teams always come up with the location gem as to the reason why we're successful at drawing in the crowds. If only it was that easy.
I notice they never mention the work that goes into raising awareness of the Panthers throughout Nottinghamshire.
It's alright having a great Arena in a superb location, but you still have to let people know that you're there and that's what the Panthers do brilliantly.
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Shaggy
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Am I a cynical idealist or an idealistic cynic?
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Post by Shaggy on Jul 11, 2011 21:22:04 GMT
I just love the arrogance on here. No doubt Neil Black has done a good job but give me a purpose built ice hockey arena in the middle of Cardiff City Centre and I’ll put a competitive team on the ice that makes a small profit. Hell, I might even win the league. Oh for pity's sake... give over with the "arrogance" dreck already. What arrogance? What exactly are you complaining about THIS time? Are you too blind to see that most of us are actually pretty sympathetic to the plight of the Cardiff fans? Not the ownership, of course - they're a major part of the reason that you are in the mess you're in right now - I doubt anyone here gives a toss about Paul Ragan etc. But the fans? - certainly. Well... apart from those with an attitude like yours, anyway. And FYI - we don't have a "purpose built ice hockey arena" in Nottingham... we have a multi-purpose arena with a strong concentration on ice sports of all kinds. Do please take note of the fact that our fixtures schedule has to be arranged around the NIC's other activities, not vice versa.  |
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Shaggy
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Am I a cynical idealist or an idealistic cynic?
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Post by Shaggy on Jul 12, 2011 6:56:43 GMT
I love that fans from other teams always come up with the location gem as to the reason why we're successful at drawing in the crowds. If only it was that easy. I notice they never mention the work that goes into raising awareness of the Panthers throughout Nottinghamshire. It's alright having a great Arena in a superb location, but you still have to let people know that you're there and that's what the Panthers do brilliantly. Had to laugh at 'Saint' Bob Phillips' little offering on this subject over on StalinTalk... Another one obsessed with location. And whilst a city centre location no doubt is good for attracting the casual fans... surely the strength of any club rests more with the habitual fans - the regulars, season ticket holders and those others who attend most if not all games? If BP truly is stupid enough to believe the drivel he wrote... no wonder he screwed up at the Steelers. |
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Doughnut
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mmmmmm ... Doughnuts
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Post by Doughnut on Jul 12, 2011 8:52:13 GMT
Actually if we had a rink nearer the M1, maybe with a lot more free parking, it'd make it a lot easier for me to get to games. It'd also be easier to attract fans from outside Nottingham, and we might get more away fans. A rink near Phoenix Park with easy links to the town centre for people wanting to go out afterwards would be handy.
Sure we might lose a few of the casual fans who just go as part of a night out, but we might get more families and people from out of town, the net loss might not be as much as people think, and we might even end up with higher attendances. Rental accommodation and office space is probably a lot cheaper out that way too.
I'm not really trying to suggest that a city centre venue isn't an advantage, I'm just suggesting that it might not be as big an advantage as some people may think.
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Shaggy
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Post by Shaggy on Jul 12, 2011 12:12:04 GMT
Actually if we had a rink nearer the M1, maybe with a lot more free parking, it'd make it a lot easier for me to get to games. It'd also be easier to attract fans from outside Nottingham, and we might get more away fans. A rink near Phoenix Park with easy links to the town centre for people wanting to go out afterwards would be handy. Sure we might lose a few of the casual fans who just go as part of a night out, but we might get more families and people from out of town, the net loss might not be as much as people think, and we might even end up with higher attendances. Rental accommodation and office space is probably a lot cheaper out that way too. I'm not really trying to suggest that a city centre venue isn't an advantage, I'm just suggesting that it might not be as big an advantage as some people may think. That's actually a very good point... one of the (few, IMHO) advantages of the Sheffield Arena is the onsite parking... that and the easier access via car for those from x miles away. The tram access for the NIC helps, I think... but it's still a bit of a pain to get to the NIC sometimes (especially for midweek games). Unfortunately, there's no way to please everyone - what will help one will hinder another. Which only goes to point a bit more towards factors other than location as reasons for the Panthers' off-ice success. |
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Post by pantherfan007 on Jul 12, 2011 12:38:46 GMT
I'd hazard a guess that a high percentage of fans at Nottingham home games 'don't' live in the city centre.
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Doom
Greg Hadden
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Post by Doom on Jul 13, 2011 5:42:17 GMT
I love that fans from other teams always come up with the location gem as to the reason why we're successful at drawing in the crowds. If only it was that easy. I notice they never mention the work that goes into raising awareness of the Panthers throughout Nottinghamshire. It's alright having a great Arena in a superb location, but you still have to let people know that you're there and that's what the Panthers do brilliantly. I think there are a number of factors, marketing being one of them. I think it's probably worth pointing out that Nottingham used to sell-out 3,000 every week even in the tired old building, meaning there were at least 3,000 Panthers supporters interested in attending every week before Mr Black took charge. What are the common factors between then and now: 1. City centre location. 2. Nottingham I've no doubt the city centre location does help attract the night out crowd, something Sheffield don't tend to do due to location. I also believe ice sports are more ingrained into the culture of Nottingham more than any other city in this country, with the possible exception of Fife. Obviously the quality of facility also helps, but for me the above 2 points are probably the biggest reasons for Panthers success at pulling in the crowds. Regards Doom |
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Shaggy
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Am I a cynical idealist or an idealistic cynic?
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Post by Shaggy on Jul 13, 2011 18:15:35 GMT
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Post by james1977 on Jul 13, 2011 18:50:53 GMT
Where is the nearest decent ice rink/arena to Cardiff, other than the big blue tent of course?
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Shaggy
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Post by Shaggy on Jul 13, 2011 19:16:06 GMT
Where is the nearest decent ice rink/arena to Cardiff, other than the big blue tent of course? Probably Swindon... 70-odd miles away. Same size ice pad, a slightly smaller spectator capacity. But that's got a full set of teams playing out of it as well... plus all the other usual skating gubbins. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 13, 2011 20:01:54 GMT
  Wash your mouth out.
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andyd
Ken Westman
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Post by andyd on Jul 14, 2011 23:05:26 GMT
For fear of repeating myself yet again before we had the NIC it was clear that we had a budget that was well below that of other clubs and was one that was possible to sustain the club. Even after moving in to the NIC and we had a very good home support the team was a budget one making the club profitable. Yes we won little but we were sustainable.. What i dont get are those fans from other teams especially sheffield but others as well that state they wont support a club that isnt winning but one that the finances can support. Surely it is best to have a club even one that isnt all dominating than no club at all, ask newcastle fans how they feel? I guess complacency has set it in sheffield that they can go bust and someone anyone will pick up the reins for yet another season.... They need to learn the hardway they cant spend what they havent got but they havent had to go through that pain.........yet... To be honest, I agree with Tex (excuse me while I go and lie down) that one of the biggest issues for hockey in this country is how fickle the fans are. It really does seem like most teams are faced with fanbases who are only interested in showing up if the team wins but, when you take a step back this makes sense. This is the sporting culture we are facing in this country, this is why little Billy in Sandiacre is a Man U fan and Tommy in Bury loves Chelsea, we want instant gratification of success and trophies. It's a national problem across all sports, success attracts fans and if you can't give me success I'm not interested. Hockey teams suffer from this exponentially but when you look at history you can see why the Panthers have avoided that despite, for long periods, being absolute kak. The REAL benefit the Panthers have is that they have BECOME an arena team not started as one. The Panthers have history and fans have grown up with the team, they went because their parents went, their grandparents went, etc. They sold out a small rink, people were intrigued because they couldn't get tickets and as newer teams sprang up it fostered a backs to the wall mentality. The Panthers were historic but couldn't compete with big chequebooks and bright arenas but they are our team and give 110% and we are with them. Let's not forget when the Superleague started there was real talk of the Panthers being left in the dust (just like Fife were), 'lot's of history lads but find yourself something to wear that won't embarrass the rest of us'. When the NIC came to fruition the Panthers had their golden ticket and we as fans had been through the wringer, we were a part of the club not just paying customers. Those fans that couldn't get tickets suddenly could and they were won over by the stories about LPS and that 110% effort. As time has gone on and that bedrock has made the club profitable and strong financially and we have become a big dog. Those clubs that arrived with chequebooks and areans built their fanbases with exactly that and as a result they were made up of Billy's and Tommy's. Once the money dried up and the success was not as plentiful they went and found something else to do 'that was fun while it lasted'. When you look at it like that the Panthers essentially had a perfect storm. it wasn't being 'given' a new city centre rink (which they weren't, they had to fight tooth, nail and £ to play there if you look in the history books) and it has only become the marketing in the last few years in topping up already strong crowds. The truth is the Panthers came of age and by the time it happened the fans were 100% in because of what had gone before. The only proof of this you need is the THOUSANDS who went mental in Newcastle the night Robert Nordmark scored in the last 5 seconds merely to avoid us finishing dead last and missing the Play Offs. The memory of jumping into Jono's arms like a 5 year old at that moment will always be in my top 4 or 5 Panthers moments whatever the future brings. Who knows what the answer is, to be honest I think we're stuck with it as a culture (thanks Rupert Murdoch) unless a club can find a creative way to deal with it. I wish, like you Tex, that people would just change and accept that there is more to hockey (and sport in general) than just winning. It would make for a better and ultimately more competitive and stable EIHL but sadly I can't see it. Me? I wouldn't swap the joy I had in even some of Panthers lowest moments for the world (see Bob Nordmark). History lesson over. EDIT: Sorry for being way off topic, this conversation just got the blood flowing.  |
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Post by texpef on Jul 15, 2011 7:19:25 GMT
To expand Andy, in the early 80's and the whipping boys of the league the panthers put in place what was to become a cracking junior development program bringing forth youngsters like Huntie, Trix tait et al which as a fanbase was giving us an equal footing with the likes of fife edinburgh and durham but just when it was all coming together the "big boys" such as sheffield decided that they couldnt wait that long to bring about their own success and formed the superleague.
Taking the cream of what was available in the brits such as lobby chinny and hand they then went on to fill the remaining roster places with imports that the likes of panthers couldnt compete with, essentially taking all the hardwork on the kids in places like Nottingham and making it worthless. So imho just when it may have been panthers time to shine it was taken away by filling the league with imports that the brits couldnt match..
Moving on to the EIHL it can be seen now that the teams that came from lower leagues such as cov have a huge advantage now as they have sustained their british contingent when the ISL teams didnt. Only the ISL teams that bought in the best of the brits ie sheff and tait were able to match them in terms of home grown talent.
I will state now although panthers had little success in the ISL era i loved it, the hockey was of a very high quality and some of the individual players (including at the panthers) were awesome and even if this level was sustainable at nottingham it was clear that due to bidding wars it was not sustainable at most if not all other clubs in the league at the time.
It is also clear that even though brits demand higher wages than they probably warrant in an open market they are still cheaper than their import counterparts overall so a balance of both should make the EIHL at least affordable to most without going bust. The problems are occurring imho because as stated previously its win or bust mentality at some places are causing teams to spend what they arent earning to "allegedly keep up with the joneses" but this is just a stupid philosophy. IF all teams spend what they can afford then i am sure the whole spend on the league as a whole would drop as bidding wars for players would not escalate beyond what is affordable...
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Post by richard1969 on Jul 15, 2011 7:45:30 GMT
"Developers are now due to be invited to build a new ice arena as part of a much larger waterfront development, featuring an indoor ski slope, hotel, restaurants, bars and shops."
Sound like Xscape at Braehead - that will take years to be built and opened - even once the development is agreed
If the existing rink is closing in December then Cardiff are going to be homeless for a year at least
Council clearly have lost patience after they liquidated - doesnt sound good to me
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lee
David Clarke
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Post by lee on Jul 15, 2011 8:56:54 GMT
"Developers are now due to be invited to build a new ice arena as part of a much larger waterfront development, featuring an indoor ski slope, hotel, restaurants, bars and shops." Sound like Xscape at Braehead - that will take years to be built and opened - even once the development is agreed If the existing rink is closing in December then Cardiff are going to be homeless for a year at least Council clearly have lost patience after they liquidated - doesnt sound good to me weren't they homless for a while a few seasons ago?? (sorry if thats already been discussed i can't be bothered to read the entire 3 pages.) |
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Post by richard1969 on Jul 16, 2011 8:25:30 GMT
"Developers are now due to be invited to build a new ice arena as part of a much larger waterfront development, featuring an indoor ski slope, hotel, restaurants, bars and shops." Sound like Xscape at Braehead - that will take years to be built and opened - even once the development is agreed If the existing rink is closing in December then Cardiff are going to be homeless for a year at least Council clearly have lost patience after they liquidated - doesnt sound good to me weren't they homless for a while a few seasons ago?? (sorry if thats already been discussed i can't be bothered to read the entire 3 pages.) So what did they do back then ? |
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Post by jaffacake on Jul 16, 2011 9:20:46 GMT
Council clearly have lost patience after they liquidated - doesnt sound good to me  The rink has nothing to do with the Devils, this is a dispute between the Council and PI. The Devils (Rinkcorp) being liquidated is not a factor. Dont forget, the Devils are not the only ones to use the BBT, there are many rink users that will be affected. |
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Post by jaffacake on Jul 16, 2011 9:27:36 GMT
weren't they homless for a while a few seasons ago?? (sorry if thats already been discussed i can't be bothered to read the entire 3 pages.) So what did they do back then ? WE played out f Basingstoke for a few games and also IIRC the fixtures were moved slightly so that we played a few games on the road before the BBT opened. |
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on Sundays? - how mad is that? I notice that (apart from the Xmas game) all of our home games against you are on Saturdays. That's either very bad luck on the Steelers' part or even worse planning...
The rink has nothing to do with the Devils, this is a dispute between the Council and PI. The Devils (Rinkcorp) being liquidated is not a factor. Dont forget, the Devils are not the only ones to use the BBT, there are many rink users that will be affected.