The eternal Imports/Brits debate thread

[Shaggy]

Jun 26, 2011 14:59:06 GMT @robbo2306 said:

While I'm in favour of gradually reducing the maximum number of imports and more quality Brits surely it's the cap on imports currently that's artificially driving up the cost of the top British players.

That and limited number available, yes...

Each team has a certain number of players to fill their roster so have to sign a certain number of British players, pretty much irrelevent of quality at the bottom end of the table.

Which can (sometimes) produce a surprise gem of a young Brit... but such a hit-and-miss approach is hardly what we should be relying upon.

You could say there is an argument for scrapping the import limit, this would immediately drive the cost of the top end Brits down and make sure they have to work hard and develop to force their way into the roster not just be in it because they were born in Britain.

So......cheaper top end brits, more money to spend on better quality imports.....the Brits in the league work with better players....standard of the league goes up......

Yeah, right... anyone remember the ISL? No import limit, and you could count the number of British players in the league - never mind on one team - on one hand! Now granted... there are more British players capable of playing at this level now than there were at ISL level then... but even so, you can bet that if there was no restriction, there'd be absolutely no effort to bring British players through. Which would be yet another backward step.

[Shaggy]

Jun 26, 2011 15:15:31 GMT pantherdman said:

Where are these Brits going to magically appear from??

No magic, just some hard work and time... exactly where players like Rob Lachowicz came from.

Players from the EU shouldn't count as imports anyways = illegal.

Actually, it's not.
The restriction is upon players requiring International Transfer Cards from the IIHF... not specifically upon nationality. I know that's a paper-thin technicality, but even so.

They had it about right with 11 imports IMO.

I disagree, but.. <shrugs>... we all have differing viewpoints.

Then again in a League so badly run as this one, they'll have problems regulating anything.

On that one, no disagreement whatsoever!

[robbo2306]

Jun 26, 2011 17:11:44 GMT Shaggy said:

Jun 26, 2011 14:59:06 GMT @robbo2306 said:

While I'm in favour of gradually reducing the maximum number of imports and more quality Brits surely it's the cap on imports currently that's artificially driving up the cost of the top British players.

That and limited number available, yes...


Which can (sometimes) produce a surprise gem of a young Brit... but such a hit-and-miss approach is hardly what we should be relying upon.

You could say there is an argument for scrapping the import limit, this would immediately drive the cost of the top end Brits down and make sure they have to work hard and develop to force their way into the roster not just be in it because they were born in Britain.

So......cheaper top end brits, more money to spend on better quality imports.....the Brits in the league work with better players....standard of the league goes up......

Yeah, right... anyone remember the ISL? No import limit, and you could count the number of British players in the league - never mind on one team - on one hand! Now granted... there are more British players capable of playing at this level now than there were at ISL level then... but even so, you can bet that if there was no restriction, there'd be absolutely no effort to bring British players through. Which would be yet another backward step.

You are right about the ISL, but, we can't go on with the best Brits earning far more than they are worth just because of where they were born.

An enforced wage cap (at the right level, not the level of the lowest common denominator) with an enforced number of Brits per team ( 3 or 4, that's 30-40 across the league ) and a raising of the import levels would, imo, drive the cost of the Brits down freeing up extra money for better quality imports and ultimately better Brits. Which would in years to come naturally improve the level of the Brits, leading to a reduction in import levels.

[Shaggy]

Jun 26, 2011 23:58:17 GMT @robbo2306 said:

You are right about the ISL, but, we can't go on with the best Brits earning far more than they are worth just because of where they were born.

Can't argue with that in principle (although we only have it as hearsay how much the top Brits are earning) but...

An enforced wage cap (at the right level, not the level of the lowest common denominator) with an enforced number of Brits per team ( 3 or 4, that's 30-40 across the league ) and a raising of the import levels would, imo, drive the cost of the Brits down freeing up extra money for better quality imports and ultimately better Brits. Which would in years to come naturally improve the level of the Brits, leading to a reduction in import levels.

Wrong.

Manipulating the demand for British players (by adjusting the import level) is not the answer in the long term. All that will serve to do is to kill off any progress that has been made in British player development. If you artificially reduce the number of places available for Brits (because imports are a quick-and-easy solution for clubs, no extra work needed, they will always be more attractive short-term) then you are sending a message out there to young British hopefuls - "if you're not 100% ready NOW, we don't want you". Believe me, having spoken to young British players for years (coming through the Lions system), I can tell you that is exactly the message it would convey.

The only way to improve the situation is by manipulating the supply of British players... boost the number of EIHL-capable Brits, and the competition amongst them for places increases... which will naturally serve to reduce their cost. Once that has started, then we can look at gradually reducing the import limit... but never increasing the demand for them by more than the increase in supply. Costs go down, but without killing off the aspirations of potential future British players.

A crude analogy would be 'communist vs capitalist' systems... one imposes a fixed limit, the other promotes competition. Or, looked at another way, how do you build a stable house - from the top down or the bottom up? You create a firm foundation and work up from there.

The only way to do this properly is from the ground up... from the juniors upwards. It's not a 'quick-fix' or an easy solution... but do those kind of things actually really exist outside of politicians' speeches and the delusions of the media? More investment of time, effort and money into British player development is the only way to go.

[texpef]

2 wage caps one for home grown players one for imports if you want to go down the wagecap route... big IF...

[robbo2306]

Jun 27, 2011 5:52:15 GMT Shaggy said:

Jun 26, 2011 23:58:17 GMT @robbo2306 said:

You are right about the ISL, but, we can't go on with the best Brits earning far more than they are worth just because of where they were born.

Can't argue with that in principle (although we only have it as hearsay how much the top Brits are earning) but...

An enforced wage cap (at the right level, not the level of the lowest common denominator) with an enforced number of Brits per team ( 3 or 4, that's 30-40 across the league ) and a raising of the import levels would, imo, drive the cost of the Brits down freeing up extra money for better quality imports and ultimately better Brits. Which would in years to come naturally improve the level of the Brits, leading to a reduction in import levels.

Wrong.

Manipulating the demand for British players (by adjusting the import level) is not the answer in the long term. All that will serve to do is to kill off any progress that has been made in British player development. If you artificially reduce the number of places available for Brits (because imports are a quick-and-easy solution for clubs, no extra work needed, they will always be more attractive short-term) then you are sending a message out there to young British hopefuls - "if you're not 100% ready NOW, we don't want you". Believe me, having spoken to young British players for years (coming through the Lions system), I can tell you that is exactly the message it would convey.

The only way to improve the situation is by manipulating the supply of British players... boost the number of EIHL-capable Brits, and the competition amongst them for places increases... which will naturally serve to reduce their cost. Once that has started, then we can look at gradually reducing the import limit... but never increasing the demand for them by more than the increase in supply. Costs go down, but without killing off the aspirations of potential future British players.

A crude analogy would be 'communist vs capitalist' systems... one imposes a fixed limit, the other promotes competition. Or, looked at another way, how do you build a stable house - from the top down or the bottom up? You create a firm foundation and work up from there.

The only way to do this properly is from the ground up... from the juniors upwards. It's not a 'quick-fix' or an easy solution... but do those kind of things actually really exist outside of politicians' speeches and the delusions of the media? More investment of time, effort and money into British player development is the only way to go.

I understand what you are saying but the EIHL is not a development league, if the Brits want to play in it then it will take hard work and dedication.

If you have enough desire and are good enough you will get through. Lachowicz (sp) for you guys, Squires/Dowd for us. It's the same in any sport, you will only succeed if you have the ability and desire.

There are many more footballers fall by the wayside after juniors because they didn't have the desire or ability.

Either way without the proper infrastructure in place at an early age you will never get the number of quality Brits that you desire. We can't even get a good England football team with all the grass roots stuff available to them, what chance has hockey??

To do what you want will take money and serious amounts of it, not going to happen any time soon.