lukef
Jade Galbraith
Posts: 27
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Post by lukef on Sept 9, 2010 21:29:58 GMT
Well the Lions run because we have the players that basically cover the team's running costs, including the ones on two-ways. If only 12 players were able to afford that, the likelihood would be that the Lions wouldn't be able to put a team out. That's the main reason for this "push".
Bracknell Hornets used to be free to watch at ENL level for 5 seasons or so up until a couple of years ago. Ironically, their crowds have gone up since they started charging people!
The officials cost £250 alone if they come from afar, so letting in everyone for free just couldn't happen- we'd never cover that loss through everything else. I do agree though, I think the Lions' appeal is probably only about 800 people in the entire Nottingham area, but we need to make sure we get as many of them coming as possible!
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Shaggy
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Am I a cynical idealist or an idealistic cynic?
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Post by Shaggy on Sept 9, 2010 21:57:34 GMT
Why would the Lions be seen as a rival there fixtures dont clash so you wouldnt go to the Lions instead of the panthers I'd stick my neck out and say that the die hardest Panther fans are the ones that do the away's on Sunday, so for them the matches do clash. Those that are able, of course (not everyone can make away matches, regardless of how 'die hard' they are)... yes, I think you're right on that score. That's an interesting idea, and if we had the leeway to do it that could provide some valuable information. Unfortunately, there simply doesn't exist the financial leeway to risk getting little or no income that game. Programmes, 50/50 etc don't make anywhere near as much as you might think. I think there are numerous reasons, and with every different person it will be a mix of those reasons. Cost, 'level' of hockey, time of game, apathy, lack of awareness, little connection with the Panthers, Olympic Rink instead of arena, etc etc. Any or all of the above, and no doubt more as well. No need to apologise, all fair comment... As for it being in the interests of the Panthers for the Lions to carry on, well the Lions have managed up to here without falling back on the Panthers to advertise for them haven't they? Your right they have, but with the fragility of hockey in this country why on earth would the panthers want to stand by and watch a team struggle to survive when they could do something to help. i dont know much about the lions setup or finances but im sure its a hell of a struggle for them to keep going. It is a struggle and no mistake. No criticism here of the Panthers... they are run as a business, the Lions aren't. 'Saving' the Lions is not the Panthers' responsibility... that's not to say that help from them (or anyone else!) wouldn't be appreciated, but it certainly can't be expected or demanded. Some people have alluded to some kind of level of competition between the Panthers and Lions. Now there may be fans out there who would prefer Lions over Panthers - the opposite is, of course, far more likely. Either way, it's personal choice... and the intention has always been to keep it as personal choice and to try to attract fans to see the Lions in addition to watching the Panthers. I myself have been watching the Panthers since the start of the 1999-00 season, and I have not missed a home game of any description since then... not for the Lions, not for anything. One of the reasons that I started to help out the Lions was because I wanted to get involved... and, quite frankly, the Panthers have absolutely no need for my (undoubtedly amateur) efforts. So there really is no problem with 'Panthers first, Lions second'... we're just trying to get some more people to activate that second choice.
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Post by Block 10 on Sept 9, 2010 22:03:38 GMT
Ok, here's my views on creating a successful Lions team for years to come.
I believe you need to build a team based on a hockey strategy. You need to base your team on a certain aspect (EG we will be the toughest, the most skilful, the hardest working). The team then can be identified by its brand of hockey. Players can come through the ranks and you will appreciate the 'lions' brand of hockey within the player throughout his career.
I personally think this link with Panthers needs to be wound down slightly. Yes, of course some players will progress onto panthers and that's great, but lions are there seperate team and have their own identity, that begins by making their own brand of hockey as I suggested above! You can then market around this specific brand and excite people about a new look ice hockey adventure happening in Nottingham.
Also, I think in todays society lack of funds to advertise is a poor excuse. There are so many FREE places to advertise! Make a facebook fan page, twiiter account, in fact maybe even bebo it for the kiddies. Also, we have so many widely read ice hockey websites use them, such as prohockeynews and british ice hcokey! Ask them to help advertise.
Another thing Is develop the website and make it look more professional. Create player profiles that are fun and interesting, let us connect with the players. Maybe do something similar to panthers and upload player interviews.
Just thought I'd put in my 2 penneth and see what you all think. Sorry for any spelling mistakes too, I hurriedly wrote this on my blackberry! Thanks
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Post by Block 10 on Sept 9, 2010 22:14:13 GMT
And also how about an entertainer in the team? Someone in the McMorrow or Penner mould, a British kid willing to do anything to rise up through the ranks. A kid which causes controversy and interest. He stirs it up and plays gritty and attracts fans. He relates due to the fact he's British and we don't have many players like this, in fact I think none.
Someone who brings fans in and excites people, and I don't mean a full on goon. Someone who protects his team mates and enjoys playing hard and tough, someone the crowd get fidgety about watching. I'm sure you you can find someone who wants to play so badly he will do anything to get in the team, heck, I know people who dream of doing jobs like it.
Just an idea, a tough one to implement I know, but a potential gem if used in the right way.
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Post by buster on Sept 9, 2010 22:52:34 GMT
i dont think you are thinking on the right scale, block 10. its not as if the Lions can pick and choose players.
you're suggestions work in principle but i think you are aiming too high, i dont want to speak for the team, but i think the suggestions needed are not directly linked to the squad or the type of players they need to recruit as the team they have is what they have got and there is very little room to play with.
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Shaggy
Forum Moderator
Am I a cynical idealist or an idealistic cynic?
Posts: 10,995
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Post by Shaggy on Sept 9, 2010 23:08:11 GMT
i dont think you are thinking on the right scale, block 10. its not as if the Lions can pick and choose players. you're suggestions work in principle but i think you are aiming too high, i dont want to speak for the team, but i think the suggestions needed are not directly linked to the squad or the type of players they need to recruit as the team they have is what they have got and there is very little room to play with. Spot on. There is little or no leeway in what can be done/changed on the ice... this is aimed at what can be done off the ice to help attract more fans. Please bear in mind that those of us helping out the Lions are just off-ice volunteers and have zero influence on team matters (and that's just how it should be IMHO).
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Post by Block 10 on Sept 10, 2010 6:47:45 GMT
Ok, fair enough! I understand why these suggestions are not viable. I just believe one my lead to another (I.e. Brand of hockey etc)
I think the facebook thing is viable and twitter etc, understandable about the squad and I agree, it was a long shot but it would definately get zukfan and bramley down there if we had someone who was classed as a young British enforcer/entertainer type player.
Also the website wouldn't take much to update, to me it just looks like an old geocities type site to me. no criticism is meant by this as I know you are running on a shoestring but I don't believe updating the website with player profiles would be hard.
Thanks
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Post by Nottingham Lions on Sept 10, 2010 7:09:18 GMT
Again, I'd like to thank all the contributers to the thread so far. We are taking note of what you have said, and we will do what we can to take these suggestions on board. I have already had a couple of PM's from people asking for flyers etc and I hope to have these ready tonight.
The Lions do have a Facebook page and they do have a Twitter account. I have finally worked out how to change the link on my phone from my personal Twitter account to the Lions one so there are updates on Twitter sent directly to games (@nottinghamlions if anyone wants to follow us). I can't link to the FB page right now as I'm at work & FB is blocked, but if you search you'll find it. All the fixtures are there, and as the season goes on we'll be posting photos etc. Photos are also posted to Twitpic to appear on the Twitter feed too..
The website has vastly improved over the last year, and more so over the last few weeks as our Webmaster is back from his year spent in Europe... We are hoping to have some player profiles up in the next week or so, with these also appearing in the programme.
I know there's quite a few Rec players here, and a few League players too no doubt but I just want to give you guys some idea of the costs of playing for the Lions. It costs £126 to register for the team, this includes a sub to the NIHC. It's £40 a month to train. Away Travel costs £20-£30 for each coach trip, plus petrol to Sheffield & Coventry where we don't take coaches. They also have to buy all their own kit - including stick tape! The money through the gate goes directly to pay the officials, if there's any left over (and there isn't always) then it goes towards the last coach trip, if we haven't got an away game then it'll go towards the refs fees on the next home game. The Lions do not make a profit as such.
The stuff the Friends of the Lions sell - programmes, sweeties, Lion Bars etc simply go back into the FoL account to cover the cost of the next lot of programmes, sweeties etc. Again, there isn't a huge profit made here!
We accept that not everyone will want to watch the Lions and that's fine! What we're asking is that if you have a spare fiver, and a couple of hours free on a Sunday night and you have thought about watching, is that you simply change thinking about it to actually coming along and watching. If you don't like it - then no problems. If you do then that's great!
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Fez
Lorne Smith
Posts: 652
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Post by Fez on Sept 10, 2010 10:45:44 GMT
On the subject of a one-night only free entry push. What's your average gate receipt? Could you consider getting a sponsor to cover your average receipt for the night you get people in free?
If you were able to co-ordinate things such as a push in the Panthers programme; the interval scrimmage; flyers to the fans; a short para from Mick Holland in the Post at the foot of one of his articles; picking a week that doesn't clash with much else - then you might expect to get quite a few people there.
I know that you will have been trying hard to get sposnors and that they don't grow on trees at the best of times, particularly not in these times. However you might be able to attract someone on the basis of a one-off special. Particularly if you go down the local lads, local team line.
I too don't want to drag up the much aired debate on the quality of the play on show at Lions, especially as I've said I haven't been to see them....yet! However I'd be very keen to here from anyone who has watched them who was around watching Panthers in the early 80s. I'd expect that the standard is similar, and that was enough to pack 'em into LPS. I know there's a difference in terms of seating, facilities but I'm just saying that there is a market there.
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Post by Nottingham Lions on Sept 10, 2010 11:39:56 GMT
On the subject of a one-night only free entry push. What's your average gate receipt? Could you consider getting a sponsor to cover your average receipt for the night you get people in free? If you were able to co-ordinate things such as a push in the Panthers programme; the interval scrimmage; flyers to the fans; a short para from Mick Holland in the Post at the foot of one of his articles; picking a week that doesn't clash with much else - then you might expect to get quite a few people there. I can't tell you off the top of my head, without looking through all the sheets from last year. I would guess at the most we got about 100-150 people through the door. As already pointed out the gate money covers the referees fees. The maximum this will be is £253, so any sponsorship we recieve would have to be £253. This is a lot of money! We have been in contact with Mick Holland & the Post and they have agreed to cover the Lions, so hopefully we should be seeing more about us there. We are waiting for an answer from the Panthers if they can help us out (allowing us to distribute flyers etc) I know that you will have been trying hard to get sposnors and that they don't grow on trees at the best of times, particularly not in these times. However you might be able to attract someone on the basis of a one-off special. Particularly if you go down the local lads, local team line. We have tried this on many occasion. We get many different forms of No, or that the company have already dealt with Mr Moran & the Panthers.
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Post by oscarwightman on Sept 10, 2010 18:20:15 GMT
Firstly, good on Shaggy & Co for continuing to support the Lions - without people like this, many players hitting 18yrs would have nowhere to play, younger panthers prospects would not be able to play senior hockey at a young age to hone their skills and the club would be without those senior players that then go on to coach the juniors.
To reply to the initial post - I guess students and people like the lady who struggle with the cost of the panthers are the audience - posters in the student areas and direct marketing to students (including the colleges) would probably get a few in (especially if a particularly imaginative poster theme is used).
Also, a number of years ago (when we were playing in the EPL) we got scout groups/school groups in... they loved it and I am sure they still would - especially if you offered any parents wanting to accompany a discount on entry?
Just my thoughts...
Standard wise - I firmly believe it is the presentation more that the 'product' that lets it down but it is a viscious circle - without the spectator numbers, there is not enough cash to do a decent job!
Comparing the team to an 80's panthers is a bit of an insult to anyone who has played for the lions in the last 10-15 years - bearing in mind many of us iced for the panthers/GB (but decided to focus our energies elsewhere) during the glory years of the ISL and beyond... The lions still ice players like Joe, Colegate, Robinson, Levers etc that all had the opportunity to play at the top level but were not interested in pursuing that career path.
Likewise with the Rec comment - The top Lions players may be paying to play but don't think it is rec league, they have as much passion for the game as anyone but just decided that they would rather be at university or building a career than training everyday & developing a 'faux' Canadien accent whilst riding the pine.
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Outlaw
Lorne Smith
JUST LIKE JESSE JAMES,.......
Posts: 729
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Post by Outlaw on Sept 10, 2010 18:35:01 GMT
I take it about half a dozen Lions games each year. I have always enjoyed them. We stand at the plexi, enjoy a beer and a decent game of Hockey. It was periodically visiting the Lions that led us to an impromptu day out at the skydome for the final four the year before last. Although,I definatley fall into the section that only looks at the lions fixtures when I am not following the Panthers on the road.
The standard is definatley a cut above gerneral rec level. Chris Colegate in particular is a very entertaing and exciting player to watch,.. always reminds me of Sean McAslan somewhat.
Looking forward to my next visit to a Lions game which should be the tie up with the Whitley Warriors.
I would heartily recommend that those who have not visited a lions game take in at least one game to see what is on offer,.. I have never been disappointed.
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Shaggy
Forum Moderator
Am I a cynical idealist or an idealistic cynic?
Posts: 10,995
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Post by Shaggy on Sept 25, 2010 23:37:06 GMT
If anyone wants to have a (sensible) discussion face-to-face about this kind of thing, do come along Sunday evening and have a chat with us at the Lions desk. It's nice to have a proper chat about this kind of thing...
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Post by richard1969 on Sept 26, 2010 19:39:25 GMT
I honestly dont think the ticket price is the problem
The hassle of driving into Nottingham City Centre, parking etc is far more off putting than the ticket price - we dont even attend every Panthers home game due to time commitments and other things the family do
I have watched Forest 30 plus years but never been to a reserve game because there is no atmosphere and I have a busy week as it is - I think at times watching Forest reserves has been foc as well (I realise you are not panthers reserves but hopefully you get my meaning)
I wish I could help but like I say if you made it free to attend you would not see a huge influx of new fans
Would need to be something more radical than that - but I dont have an obvious answer
I do admire you guys who give your time to this though
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Post by johnadam on Sept 27, 2010 8:00:30 GMT
Who are the Lions? I have never seen anything advertised for them, no posters anywhere. Maybe you could have some thing on the doors or just above them advertising your games. What about the flash board out side that puts on the up and coming events.
Would people with cameras be allowed, I am getting into sport photography and would like to take pictures of ice hockey in my home town as practice, you could have copy of all images for free. Been told by Gmoran that im not allowed with them though.
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Post by Nottingham Lions on Sept 27, 2010 8:18:56 GMT
Who are the Lions? I have never seen anything advertised for them, no posters anywhere. I take it you're volunteering to put up some flyers? PM me your email address and I'll send you some. Maybe you could have some thing on the doors or just above them advertising your games. What about the flash board out side that puts on the up and coming events. The new board outside is going to be a no-go, it'll cost too much. We're also limited in the amount of advertising we can do in the Arena. Would people with cameras be allowed, I am getting into sport photography and would like to take pictures of ice hockey in my home town as practice, you could have copy of all images for free. Been told by Gmoran that im not allowed with them though. We already have a photographer who stands on the bench. The camera ban at Panthers games is a Panthers/Arena/League thing it doesn't apply to the Lions. However there are insurance/CRB issues so we have to be careful. If you want to take photos either PM me or email at nottinghamlions@gmail.com and I'll discuss it with the Club & the photographer.
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Post by johnadam on Sept 27, 2010 11:20:29 GMT
Not a problem, i will hand out flyers if it means you get a little help advertising games. I might even buy a Lions jersey.
Only thing you need to check on, are you allowed to hand out flyers because some one that runs the NPSC bus was told he had to pay up to £500 for the flyers he was handing out due to clean up costs i think.
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Post by johnadam on Sept 27, 2010 14:19:52 GMT
misssammylou - i think i will do the same then. I know a few people who want to go an see ice hockey games but dont want to pay £16 a ticket when they have a family of 5 or so.
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Post by Nottingham Lions on Sept 28, 2010 9:53:08 GMT
Can I again just say thank you to all that have contributed to this thread with your ideas and offers - johnadam you will have a PM.
We actually had a good crowd in on Sunday and did cover the refs costs. I hope those that came enjoyed it even if the result wasn't what we wanted. It's given us something to build on though and I hope we can up our game next week!
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