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Post by james1977 on Jun 20, 2011 10:10:08 GMT
sparkymark75 - I was over on the Flyers forum and noticed this comment by yourself.
Do you honestly think the imports are the most expensive players on the team? Some 'marquee' players will command fairly high wages but the players that have the most bargaining power in a league with a limit on imports are the better quality Brits, especially as the better quality Brits are few and far between.
If the EIHL dropped down to being a four import league the teams with the deeper pockets will just strip the smaller teams of their Brits, leaving such teams as out-gunned as they are under the current system. There would no doubt also be a knock-on in the EPL etc, with EIHL teams making a grab for their players too, something that wouldn't be good for British hockey as a whole.
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Post by pingchowchi on Jun 20, 2011 13:57:25 GMT
I would have thought that your average import players costs (flights etc) would be more than your average home grown player.
I agree that lowering the import level at this moment in time would be a bad thing, but I would like it to be something that the league as a whole would aim as a long time goal.
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Post by texpef on Jun 20, 2011 14:18:59 GMT
dont see why we need a long term goal to reduce import levels, personally i like watching the imports as it is those players generally that make the game exciting and score the goals etc...
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LUFC
Ashley Tait
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Post by LUFC on Jun 20, 2011 15:34:35 GMT
I would have thought that your average import players costs (flights etc) would be more than your average home grown player. I agree that lowering the import level at this moment in time would be a bad thing, but I would like it to be something that the league as a whole would aim as a long time goal. Couldnt dissagree with you more. The most exciting leagues are abroad. I want to see them players of that quality here, not some brit who has a gifted spot on a team because he's born here. Until there are more brits of import quality brought through our youth systems, we cannot go to a lower import total to give certainly myself and many other fans value for money. For the pricing paid, i expect the best. The pricing of EPL games give the quality i expect, not saying it's bad, because some of them games i've seen as dam exciting. but it's quality isnt as high as the imports bring. IMO
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Post by pingchowchi on Jun 20, 2011 16:19:14 GMT
Ah well, guess that's just me then
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Post by pantherfan007 on Jun 22, 2011 22:12:42 GMT
I would have thought that your average import players costs (flights etc) would be more than your average home grown player. I agree that lowering the import level at this moment in time would be a bad thing, but I would like it to be something that the league as a whole would aim as a long time goal. Couldnt dissagree with you more. The most exciting leagues are abroad. I want to see them players of that quality here, not some brit who has a gifted spot on a team because he's born here. Until there are more brits of import quality brought through our youth systems, we cannot go to a lower import total to give certainly myself and many other fans value for money. For the pricing paid, i expect the best. The pricing of EPL games give the quality i expect, not saying it's bad, because some of them games i've seen as dam exciting. but it's quality isnt as high as the imports bring. IMO Couldn't disagree with you more. It's this short term self-indulgent view that jeopardises the long term success of British ice hockey as a whole. "I want to be entertained so just roll imports" is only ever damaging in the long term (not saying that's your view just illustrating a point). The key to long term British success (which leads to increased awareness and growth of the sport as a whole) is gradually reducing the number of imports. This means needing more Brits at the highest level which creates an industry in developing the younger players.
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Ghost
Matt Myers
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Post by Ghost on Jun 22, 2011 22:18:08 GMT
Gradually decreasing the number of imports until what? We pay £15 a game to watch rec hockey?
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LUFC
Ashley Tait
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Post by LUFC on Jun 22, 2011 22:25:06 GMT
For team GB it may be good to have less imports. But for overall development of this league and skillwise imports are what makes it stand out for the inferior standards below it.
If i am to pay 18 a ticket to watch a match, i expect it to be packed with skill, excitement and action from the get go, not a bunch of brits going around the ice through the motions because they get a spot in top flight british hockey by their birth right rather than their skill level being good enough to make them play there.
If they want to play on an Elite team, they need to play to the quality of imports. Development is the issue, not the import numbers. Plenty of rec and lower leagues to cut their teeth at to become good enough to move up at each level.
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Post by harlan on Jun 22, 2011 22:48:49 GMT
No, totally disagree. For the elite league to develop it needs British players playing at the highest level possible and more of them. For that to happen the quality, not the quantity, of imports is key. British players will learn an awful lot more from 4 or 5 high quality imports in a team than they will from 8 or 9 mediocre ones. For British guys playing this sport all they have internationally is to try and play for GB and if they are not given the opportunity to play at the highest domestic level available tothem then this isnt achievable and for GB to progress internationally British players have to have to aim for
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Shaggy
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Post by Shaggy on Jun 22, 2011 23:29:19 GMT
Gradually decreasing the number of imports until what? We pay £15 a game to watch rec hockey? Why do people totally exaggerate to make their point? Nobody is saying to get rid of imports... far from it. Merely a gradual decrease (over several years)... probably down to 8 at the very least? Anyway... manipulating the import limit is not the crucial factor - that's just messing around with the demand for British players. No, what is absolutely essential is the continual development in British players at EIHL level - increasing the supply of such. And as any student of economics will know... increasing the demand without increasing the supply only serves to increase the price - and it's already been argued that top British players cost too much as it is. But increasing the supply of British players will serve to reduce the price... making quality British players more affordable to all teams - especially the less well-off teams. And that would make the league more competitive - increasing the enjoyment of games, yes? Once we've got a bit more of that, then we can look at dropping the import level by one or two (only gradually!)... but never increasing the demand more than by the rate of increase in supply. So... you'd have more British players of decent quality... which would increase the overall standard, yes? And at a reduced cost, which means more of the salary budget could be put into the imports... which, coupled with the slight decrease in the number of imports, would inevitably mean being able to afford better imports. And the overall standard goes up yet again. If that's not the definition of a win-win scenario, then what is? The big problem is, of course, getting everyone on board (at all levels) with the will to invest the time and other resources to do this. It's possible, no doubt - the improvement in British players in the EIHL since the league started is proof of that. We just need more of it. But we've had this discussion many times... and no doubt will again many more...
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Post by NickThePanther44 on Jun 22, 2011 23:32:49 GMT
If British hockey had half the obsession with proper financial management as it does with import quotas/limits we'd be on a par with the DEL by now.
Forget the player nationalities and concentrate on creating a financially stable league.
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Post by pantherfan007 on Jun 22, 2011 23:46:55 GMT
Gradually decreasing the number of imports until what? We pay £15 a game to watch rec hockey? Tsk, so short minded. No, paying £15 to watch NHL standard British players - I'm just 15 years ahead of you.
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Post by pantherfan007 on Jun 22, 2011 23:49:12 GMT
^^ Agree with Shaggy. Particularly as he re-introduces economics to the debate which is truly the ONLY real factor in any business decision.
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Post by NickThePanther44 on Jun 23, 2011 0:17:24 GMT
^^ Agree with Shaggy. Particularly as he re-introduces economics to the debate which is truly the ONLY real factor in any business decision. The import limit is as low as it needs to be for at least the next five years. There are much more pressing issues than how many Canadians we have in the EIHL. The number of nationalities you have in a league is irrelevant.
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Post by NickThePanther44 on Jun 23, 2011 0:23:28 GMT
Couldnt dissagree with you more. The most exciting leagues are abroad. I want to see them players of that quality here, not some brit who has a gifted spot on a team because he's born here. Until there are more brits of import quality brought through our youth systems, we cannot go to a lower import total to give certainly myself and many other fans value for money. For the pricing paid, i expect the best. The pricing of EPL games give the quality i expect, not saying it's bad, because some of them games i've seen as dam exciting. but it's quality isnt as high as the imports bring. IMO Couldn't disagree with you more. It's this short term self-indulgent view that jeopardises the long term success of British ice hockey as a whole. "I want to be entertained so just roll imports" is only ever damaging in the long term (not saying that's your view just illustrating a point). The key to long term British success (which leads to increased awareness and growth of the sport as a whole) is gradually reducing the number of imports. This means needing more Brits at the highest level which creates an industry in developing the younger players. I strongly strongly disagree. Please explain to me how having more British kids in the league is the key to taking the EIHL never mind British hockey to future success? It's absolute rubbish. Getting more Brits at the top level is a very small part in possibly taking this great sport to the main stage in the UK. I've started taking much more of an interest in team GB and have been impressed with the improving standard of more and more Brits since the inception of the EIHL but at no point have I every heard a viable reason that more British players in the EIHL will lead to taking this game forward. The EIHL and British hockey in general needs to get it's house in order before anything like that will make even the slightest difference.
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Mark
Randall Weber
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Post by Mark on Jun 23, 2011 3:02:10 GMT
For me Team GB are just about where they belong. Realistically they haven't got the resources, the support mechanisms, the finances or the strong grass roots to sustain top flight international hockey. Neither can I envisage that scenario changing a great deal. Hockey is a minority sport in this country and will remain so. Even if every game played during a season sold out it would still be a minority sport that has neither the venues or infastructure to grow beyond what we already have.
How many youngsters take up hockey in comparison to say football, rugby or cricket? How many parents could actually afford to support their child playing hockey as opposed to football or rugby? Even cricket is less expensive. Then there's the lack of facilities. The number of ice rinks in Britain is not great, as an example I would guess there are more football pitches in Nottingham than there are rinks in the rest of the country. The game just can't compete, even our climate isn't condusive, rarely can hockey be played outdoors.
A continued reduction in imports would seriously damage the quality of the product with no guarantee of significant improvement in the quantity and quality of British players, the talent pool is in my opinion too shallow. Poor hockey would lead to poor attendences and from there the sport would once more regress, ultimately affecting Team GB.
We are where we belong, I cannot see that changing.
I hope Fife gain entry to the EIHL by the way.
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Ghost
Matt Myers
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Post by Ghost on Jun 23, 2011 5:08:18 GMT
So Shaggy, you know what pantherfan meant in terms of drop in imports do you? No, of course you dont.
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Shaggy
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Post by Shaggy on Jun 23, 2011 7:34:05 GMT
So Shaggy, you know what pantherfan meant in terms of drop in imports do you? No, of course you dont. No, because she didn't put any kind of figure on it... simply talked about "gradually reducing the number of imports". Which, if taken too far, I agree would likely be counterproductive. As I said, I'd envisage - for the top league in this country, anyway - a minimum level of 8 imports - eventually. And only after the supply of EIHL-ready British players has been boosted. Sustainability is the key here - being realistic. "Gradually decreasing the number of imports until what? We pay £15 a game to watch rec hockey?" Now where's the realism in that? That's just exaggerating beyond all sanity. If British hockey had half the obsession with proper financial management as it does with import quotas/limits we'd be on a par with the DEL by now. Too true! Not "forget" player nationalities... simply make it a more reasoned part of an overall plan. (Out of curiousity - are you going to tell those who openly say they only want to see imports on the ice to "forget player nationalities" as well? ). The thing is... by concentrating more (not exclusively, I hasten to add) on proper British player development, that would help to make the league more financially stable. Obviously there's an awful lot of other factors that need work, but to bring down British player costs whilst not compromising the quality level AND to be able to devote more £££s per import player (without increasing the player budget)... that's surely got to be one big way to make things more financially stable. Not to mention increase the overall standard and local player participation... both of which could potentially increase attendances (and thus bring in more money). It's not something to focus on to the exclusion of all else... but it's an important part of the puzzle.
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BigLad
David Clarke
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Post by BigLad on Jun 23, 2011 8:05:48 GMT
If British hockey had half the obsession with proper financial management as it does with import quotas/limits we'd be on a par with the DEL by now. Forget the player nationalities and concentrate on creating a financially stable league. QFE
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Post by texpef on Jun 23, 2011 8:22:32 GMT
No, totally disagree. For the elite league to develop it needs British players playing at the highest level possible and more of them. For that to happen the quality, not the quantity, of imports is key. British players will learn an awful lot more from 4 or 5 high quality imports in a team than they will from 8 or 9 mediocre ones. For British guys playing this sport all they have internationally is to try and play for GB and if they are not given the opportunity to play at the highest domestic level available tothem then this isnt achievable and for GB to progress internationally British players have to have to aim for Been there done that, remember the heineken league, semi pro at best and although i loved watching the hockey then the standard very low as compared even to now. Having said that the panthers had a cracking junior development which was basically dismantled when the ISL was formed...
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Post by pantherfan007 on Jun 23, 2011 10:08:27 GMT
Couldn't disagree with you more. It's this short term self-indulgent view that jeopardises the long term success of British ice hockey as a whole. "I want to be entertained so just roll imports" is only ever damaging in the long term (not saying that's your view just illustrating a point). The key to long term British success (which leads to increased awareness and growth of the sport as a whole) is gradually reducing the number of imports. This means needing more Brits at the highest level which creates an industry in developing the younger players. I strongly strongly disagree. Please explain to me how having more British kids in the league is the key to taking the EIHL never mind British hockey to future success? It's absolute rubbish. Getting more Brits at the top level is a very small part in possibly taking this great sport to the main stage in the UK. I've started taking much more of an interest in team GB and have been impressed with the improving standard of more and more Brits since the inception of the EIHL but at no point have I every heard a viable reason that more British players in the EIHL will lead to taking this game forward. The EIHL and British hockey in general needs to get it's house in order before anything like that will make even the slightest difference. It's quite simple really. As Shaggy says OVER TIME and GRADUALLY reducing the number of imports creates a demand for more and better British players. There's a basic economic driver here which in many ways is already on show in the EIHL and that is the limited number of quality Brits currently available mean that they can demand (and attain) higher salaries. This a case of supply and demand in it's most simple form. By slowly increasing the demand for British players it creates a viable market for people to invest in the development of British players. (Particularly for the clubs themselves). As the need for more players increases, there are more opportunities for Brits and by proxy more young people interested in playing hockey where they see the increased opportunity. Increased demand from people for skating encourages additional infrastructure to be developed and more British involvement creates a wider fanbase and interest in the UK generally. Over time this creates a larger pool of talent to choose from and the standard of British players and the number of British players increases. This inevitably leads to a better GB team, more GB success and the media exposure that goes with that. (Clearly the PR of the EIHL and GB hockey must be developed concurrently). Now, are you saying that in say 15 years time you wouldn't want to watch a UK league where almost the entire squads are British players who are as good (if not better) than the current level of imports we have here? I fail to see the logic behind wanting imports for the sake of them being imports when they wouldn't be as good in theory. You say "at no point have I every heard a viable reason that more British players in the EIHL will lead to taking this game forward." Ok, I'll give you a viable reason so you'll have now heard one: For the sake of argument let's say there are 10,000 import level British hockey players trying to get into hockey teams in this country. That means 10,000 sets of friends and family as interested spectators. The increase in the sheer number of British players will lead to more fans, more demand for hockey teams and therefore the aforementioned infrastructure made available. More British players in the EIHL can ONLY take the game forward as I have demonstrated in the theoretical example above.
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Post by texpef on Jun 23, 2011 11:26:40 GMT
decreasing the number of imports allowed increases the demand for british players purely because they still have to fill rosters, nothing to do with quality by the same token allowing more imports reduces the demand for british players, dont see this as a valid argument for anything other than stating the bleedin obvious...
this in itself does not increase development of british players any more than it does at present, because panthers need another brit or two they will still get them from the same place as they do now either lions or nick em from somewhere else. All this will create is for teams such as Edinburgh to nick theirs from EPL teams.
Imho there are too many leaps in your assessment and imho these are incorrect, i guess unless it is implimented we arent going to know and imho this will not be implimented for the foreseeable future.
If we are going to make wild guess at numbers lets make it more realistic that 10000 is probably nearer 1000..., there are an equal number of fans who go to see imports not brits so hence not taking game forward. Think you assessment imho is miles off and too naive. Apart from the very odd exception the imports are miles better than brits and given that canadians learn to skate before the walk this is very unlikely to change any time soon.
Remember ice hockey is a very minor sport in this country....
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Post by pantherdman on Jun 23, 2011 12:29:49 GMT
Best quality hockey possible for my money please.
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jester
Robert Lachowicz
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Post by jester on Jun 23, 2011 12:58:50 GMT
Best quality hockey possible for my money please. Bang on the money. ;D Couldnt give a rats ass about team GB. Just as a side note: strange how many non germans suddenly get german passports which means they dont count towards the DEL import limit
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Post by pantherfan007 on Jun 23, 2011 13:09:45 GMT
Best quality hockey possible for my money please. Bang on the money. ;D Couldnt give a rats ass about team GB. It's just so staggeringly short sighted. Imagine team GB wins Olympic gold - again. The massive increase in interest in the sport filters down to a grass roots level and means more people watching, more teams playing, a bigger, better and stronger league, and a higher quality on-ice. The pyschology and evidence is there in other sports. More people play tennis when Wimbledon is on TV. More people go down their local snooker club when the Masters is on and so on. A successful GB team in hockey is one of the most important factors for the development of the sport in this country.
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